Ep. 220 From Figure Skating to Podcasting: A Fun Chat with Media Entrepreneur Asad Butt
Saadia 0:01
Hello Immigrantly family it’s Saadia Khan and if you're listening to my voice right now chances are you just clicked on another episode of Immigrantly. And I'm so glad you did that. Now for those of you who are tuning in for the first time this podcast is where I sit down with a special guest every week, I have great conversations about life culture, the immigrant experience and everything in between literally everything. Pretty exciting stuff. So be sure to tune in to our other episodes, because we are creating some awesome content and I don't want you guys to miss out on it.
And finally, spring is here, and I can hardly contain my excitement. Now for me, warm weather is a welcome change from the cold and dreary winters especially because I suffer from anxiety and cold weather can freely make it worse. Now I can take my evening walks without bundling up layers of clothing, which I hate to do. I love the feeling of sun on my skin and fresh air in my lungs. And these long days allow me to unwind and enjoy the simple things in life. And I wonder how you spend your spring days and evenings. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Write to me at info@immigrantly pod.com. And share with me how transitioning from winter to spring impacts you impact your health, your physical well being your mood, talk to me about it would love love, love to hear your thoughts. And now to our today's episode. So this week, I'm actually interviewing somebody I already know, which is crazy. I don't know. Maybe that's cheating. What do you guys think? Is it? Anyways, if you've been listening to my other true crime style podcast in Invisible Hate, you will definitely recognize him as my co-host
[Excerpt from Invisible Hate]
Everyone, welcome to another episode of Invisible Hate. I'm Asad Butt.
And I'm Saadia Khan.
Saadia 2:09
And he's been in the business, entrepreneurial, and media for a while now. Like me asserts personal and career goals have been largely shaped by a post-9/11 America. In fact, the stigma around Muslims in this country encouraged the creation of Rifelion Media, Asad’s production company, which he started in 2020. Rifelion has produced a number of podcasts, all in the name of uplifting, diverse voices. And if you know anything about me in this podcast, then you know that I share those same goals. In fact, Refelion actually partnered with Immigrantly in the past. Yep. If any of you remember season 13, you may recall that I had a co-host. No, it wasn't Asad, but his fellow producer, Shahjehan Khan, who join me for a few months as we talk to our guests about relationships, dating, yes, dating, romance, all that good stuff.
[Excerpt from Season 13]
And so we're just like holding hands, walking out of the Solomon, whatever the movie theater at the Solomon Pond Mall in Marlboro. And who's there to pick up Mariam, um, my sister and her friends. My mom. Oh my god.
Saadia 3:28
Again, I've known Asad for a while and if you haven't listened to our episodes from Season 13, once you finish listening to this episode, go back. I promise you that's one season where I was most vulnerable, honest, introspective and almost exposed in terms of my thoughts and how I felt and how I feel about so many things that in a way we've dabbled discussing or exploring as I was growing up in Pakistan, so don't forget to check it out. Now, coming back to Rifelion, one of Rifelion’s podcasts that I highly recommend is King Of The World and I kid you not. I listened to it in a day. I finished the whole series in a day. It is so good.
[Excerpt from King Of The World]
Growing up as a Muslim kid in America in the 80s and 90s was hard. Then you were in kindergarten. You said Can you wash my hands with some soap so that they become white like everybody else's? But after 911 It was fucking impossible.
Saadia 4:41
It was an honoree for Best Documentary podcast in the 2022 Webby Awards. And guys, Webbys is an amazing accomplishment. So you should definitely check it out. As for how we met and started working together, Asad and I. I’ll let him fill out in on those details because they are so many. Plus I'm sure there's a lot of stuff that I don't even know about so that I'm so excited to take a deep dive and delve into those things, those hidden parts of asserts personality that I am not familiar with. So without further ado, let's welcome Asad.
[Music]
Saadia 5:38
How are you doing?
Asad 5:40
Good. How you doing?
Saadia 5:41
I'm doing well. I was introducing you. And I said something to the listeners. I said, I felt I was cheating because I know you.
Asad 5:51
Yeah. We've gotten to know each other pretty well over this last year or so.
Saadia 5:55
Yeah, but at the same time, I feel like there are parts of your identity that I am not aware of. And normally I give my guests the floor to introduce themselves. So I am going to do that with you.
Asad 6:14
Oh, wow.
Saadia 6:15
So why don't you tell me where you grew up where you were born. And one thing that you think listeners should know about you.
Asad 6:17
So I was born just north of Boston, a small little town of about 12,000 people. We're one of three or four Pakistani families in the entire town. And, you know, one of the only Muslim families in the town, spent my entire life there, north of Boston until I went to college in a small little town in Maine, spent four years there, and then moved back to Boston. And that's where I kind of started my career. One interesting thing about me, so one thing that I always like to tell people is that I took figure skating lessons when I was younger, which is actually similar to Shahjehan, the host of our podcast series. The reason is because at least this is what I tell myself or tell people is that my sisters really wanted to take figure skating lessons and you know, I wanted to play hockey, but those lessons were happening the same time, I think my parents didn't want me to play hockey. So they just put me in the figure skating lessons with my sisters as well.
Saadia 7:18
Oh, my gosh, I'm so proud of your parents. By really, I mean, they were pretty progressive at the time, because a lot of parents, especially desi parents would be pushing the kid, boy, especially to play hockey.
Asad 7:33
I wish that I played hockey, I played a lot of street hockey growing up and not ice hockey. And I've always loved the sport and just wish that I had done it.
Saadia 7:41
So tell me, you mentioned somewhere that you started your career in broadcast journalism, I said, Why broadcast journalism?
Asad 7:50
So I was really into photography at the end of high school and into college. And I would have my camera with me everywhere I went. And at that time, it was film, right. It wasn't it wasn't digital, it was early stage of digital. And so when I was in college, I would just go around the campus taking pictures of sporting events, and you know, just my friends and just like random events just to have and then I submitted it to, you know, the newspaper in the yearbook. And you know, and eventually join the newspaper as their photo editor.
Saadia 8:20
This was your college newspaper, right?
Asad 8:22
College newspaper, yeah. And senior year, there was kind of like a dearth of leadership, there wasn't anybody that really wanted to become editor-in-chief. And so I just put my name in the hat. And for whatever reason, they selected me. And so all of a sudden, I was editor-in-chief of our campus newspaper, and I didn't know what to do. I didn't know what an editor-in-chief really was. I mean, I generally knew but like, you know, it's the first time where I've just kind of thrown myself into the deep end and learned as I'm doing it, and so really fell in love with journalism and the idea of journalism. And for whatever reason, photojournalism and video journalism has always appealed to me a big fan of 60 minutes growing up, and like, you know, the dateline type of stuff. And it came time to graduating again, like I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I was like, oh, I kind of want to maybe be like a television reporter or something like that. And so graduated from school and literally, like, typed out a letter to send to an alumni put it in the mail and was like, hi, you know, I'd love to talk to you or like to, like get coffee with you, in a letter form, like you know, and as you know, this that we do an email on LinkedIn, right? But like, this is like, I literally sent a letter to like alumni that were in broadcast journalism. This is in summer of 2001.
Saadia 9:38
Why letter?
Asad 9:39
I think that's what they told us to do. What other way was there to communicate? I mean, I guess there was email.
Saadia 9:43
But like, there was email at the time, Asad.
Asad 9:48
This was like the formal process. Anyway, my first forays into broadcast journalism, or WBUR, which is a really prominent NPR radio station in Boston, and WHTH which was at the time The NBC affiliate in Boston, also one of the top television stations in the country. So I had an internship at one and it was a production assistant entry level job, but the other one and that was like, how I started my career in the summer of 2001.
Saadia 10:13
And then you moved to Bridges TV?
Asad 10:17
Well, there's a lot to discuss there. So my career essentially has been entirely in this post 911 world, right. And so when 911 happened, and I was working in these two newsrooms, I was literally one of the few Muslims, obviously, as you know, like, the focus came on us in our community. And so those years after 911, I was thinking a lot about what I could be doing to better serve our community and whatnot, and British TV kind of came out of nowhere. So British TV at the time was this really novel, kind of like it was going to be the first American Muslim Lifestyle Network. The model was BET, Black Entertainment Television, which came out of nowhere to become this billion dollar company. And so that was the model that a lot of minority communities were using.
So another one at the time was a network, I think it's still around called Logo, which was for, you know, the LGBT community. And so, British TV launched this kind of network of news, entertainment, documentaries, all geared towards American Muslims.
Saadia
That sounds interesting.
Asad
Yeah. And really ahead of its time, when you go back and think about it, and this was 2004, when it launched and Muhammad Ali was in like, supporting and a lot of American Muslims were supporting it. And so I went and joined as the first news director and anchor and working 12 hours a day kind of putting together a daily news show. And this was out of Buffalo, New York. It's basically there's like two seasons, there's like winter, and then there's like summer for a couple of weeks, I'm exaggerating, but all I remember is I would get to the station at 5:00 am. And there would be multiple times where I would wake up and have to shovel outmy car from like, three feet of snow in order to get to the station. That is what I think about when I think about Buffalo. But anyway, so British TV was great idea, but just really poorly executed. And a little bit ahead of its time, because this is pre-YouTube, I think had YouTube been around or the podcasting industry been around, like it would have done a lot better. But it was like, you know, channel 372, and you had to pay $10 extra a month for it. And the programming wasn't that great, you know, because we just didn't have the money to put into new programming. It was so expensive back then to do different programming. And so it's just never really like.
Saadia
It never took off.
Asad
It never took off.
Saadia 11:19
Yeah, but you also mentioned something about the environment being extremely toxic that and I want to know more about that.
Asad 12:43
Saadia, you know, as you know, leadership at companies makes or breaks thing, especially at a startup like this. And so the manager at the time, and I got to know him really well, the manager at the time, we literally worked out of his house. So I was there. As I said, 12 hours a day working out of his converted his living room into my studio. Oh, wow. And so got to know him really well. And he was just a really horrible manager. And on top of that, a really horrible human being. But he had some investors that backed him. And, you know, I remember, they were so bad, you know, just like in terms of how we treated people and how he even treated his family. You know, at one point, I went to the board, and I was like, you gotta get rid of this guy, like, We need someone else. And the board was just like, they believe too much in the idea of the company and didn't believe this 25 year old kid, what he was saying, I just thought I was complaining. And then as you know, saw the end, this will be a little bit of a shock to the listeners. But you know, I left and then three years later, he actually murdered his wife in the newsroom. Oh, wow. And so, you know, like, we're talking about the extreme kind of toxic environment and, you know, obviously leads to something like that.
Saadia 13:53
That's so sad, Asad. Just to know that something could have become so much bigger and impactful, and then it just disintegrated.
And I want to circle back to 911. Now 911 has shaped a lot of our lives. Yeah, we've dug career paths that became what they became for us, right? Transitions that we made. And I am curious to know if you could talk a little bit more about how 9/11 really shaped your career path especially now where you are with Rifelion, and I do want to talk a little bit about Rifelionas well.
Asad
Yeah, sure.
Saadia
So talk to me some more about that.
Asad 14:33
I can't understate how impactful 9/11 was both professionally and personally to me and most every other Muslim that was coming of age in that time. And it was the conversations that we were having. We were worried about our security. You know, I was in grad school in 2002. And I remember I was doing stories online, what was happening to our community. There was some like crazy stuff that was happening like people might not even realize this, but like anybody that was going on a flight to Pakistan would get fingerprinted and photographed. Just so outrageous to me, right. And there was, I did a story, people were so concerned about being like corralled by the government, that there were a bunch of Pakistani immigrants that were actually going to the border of Canada to go into Canada and leave America. And so I did a story for school where I drove up to the Canadian border and interviewed a couple people, you know, and so, I mean, I remember talking to one of my professors, or the dean of the college at BU, and he literally what I saw what I was doing, he leaned in and he goes, Are you like a terrorist? Are you like a sympathizer?
Saadia 15:42
What the fuck? And what was your response? I'm curious to know what you said.
Asad 15:47
I mean, literally, I was a 22 year old kid. And like, I was obviously I said, No. But like, I was, like, kind of taken aback. I think he was trying to make a joke of something. I was still like, I mean, come on.
Saadia
Now, you know, I mean, these kinds of jokes are not really jokes, right? There is always an underlying assumption.
Asad
Especially from the dean of a school exactly which school that I that work at, which is pretty funny. But the other story, sadly, is, as a student, I was doing my story, and I can't remember what the story was, but it's about like, what the FBI was doing to Muslims, and spying and all that kind of stuff. And so I went downtown, in front of the FBI building in Boston, you know, public area, and I just set up my camera, and I kind of like, you know, blah, blah, blah, this is the FBI building, and, you know, no big deal. Like, you can record yourself in public doing whatever you want. They came out, they escorted me in, they, like, asked for my ID and all this kind of stuff. And the funny thing is Saadia, I didn't have my ID on me, because at school, in order to borrow the equipment, you have to give them your ID. Right?
Saadia
Oh, my gosh.
Asad
So that was the environment, post 9/11. Both personally, professionally, just kind of like this constant anxiety. And as you're aware, and you know, yeah, it's, it's shaped what I've done my entire career. And, you know, I spent 10 years working on various projects of trying to build bridges between our community. And, you know, one of the projects I did was connecting classrooms in the Middle East with classrooms in America, using at the time really cutting edge stuff. And then, you know, I spent the last kind of like, 10 years moving away from that, but now I'm back with Rifelion. As you as you know, and we're we're really focusing on elevating diverse voices.
Saadia 17:31
Yeah. So talk to me about Rifelion and how did you decide to name it Rifelion? So 2020 is when Rifelion is founded, and you name it Rifelion? I want to know the backstory, and what do you plan? Or what do you hope to achieve through it?
Asad 17:47
As I mentioned, spending 10 years kind of working in the investment world, as you know, and after the George Floyd stuff, you know, I realized, like, my job was making rich people even richer, right? And it was like, I loved what I was doing. I was helping startups get off the ground, but it just wasn't fulfilling, you know, what was in the back of my mind was like, Okay, I want to get back to kind of like helping our community and whatnot. And so with the anniversary of 911, coming up the 20th anniversary, I was like, wow, wouldn't it be great if we did a podcast series on American Muslim life post 9/11.
Saadia 18:17
So the podcast came first
Asad 18:19
The podcast idea came first. And I was like, wow, this is like, this is something that I could really commit to doing. But then like, now I gotta figure out how to do it. That's kind of like the idea for them. The company Rifelion came about and it really was like, you know, a vehicle to elevate diverse voices. We started with kind of stories from the American Muslim community, we started with podcasting. And we're going to expand into stories from other kind of non centered community, South Asian, Arab American, you know, other kinds of communities like that and go out into other formats beyond podcasting, like film, books, and TV, hopefully, one day. We launched in 2020, that podcast series called King Of The World, as you known as you've been a big fan of came out in 2021. And that was really like a passion project. And if that failed, then, you know, I would have shut the company down. But as you know, like it really took off and was really well received, and how we have a bunch of other kind of things in the fire.
Saadia 19:16
We have Invisible Hate.
Asad 19:17
We have Invisible Hate, our podcast, which is talking about, you know, hate crimes that are committed against minority groups, and, you know, sadly, and Saadia and I co host that and it's definitely like, you know, an amazing podcast, and everybody should be checking out.
Saadia 19:30
So you said something about bridging the gap, right? Creating strong narratives, creating a more holistic society. And I wonder what that vision looks like to you. Do you have a thought as to what bridging the gap really means?
Asad 19:46
What comes to mind is I think a lot about so yeah, as you know, I'm a new dad.
Saadia 19:51
I was going to ask you about that because between you being sleep deprived, because it's the newborn and me fasting. I think we sound pretty good right now, definitely,
Asad 20:03
This is probably one of our better episodes, if you just put this on it Invisible Hate.
[Laughing]
So my wife is non Muslim, she is a white woman from European roots. And she absolutely loves Pakistani culture and Muslim culture and like, she gets more excited about when the youth comes. And you know, she probably eats more dates than I do. And her family as well. My in-laws are, are amazing people as well. And they just, they're so excited to learn and be a part of the culture as well. You know, they all dressed up in shalwar kameez during our wedding, and like danced, and it was amazing. And so when I think about kind of like bridging the gap, it's like, inviting those people that are one or two degrees of separation away from a Muslim or South Asian, or an Arab American, that has an interest to learn more, but just doesn't have the right vehicle to learn more or to engage more. And so, you know, I'm hoping that these will be vehicles for that, you know, and whether it's through comedy, drama, through whatever hate crimes, you know, I think that we have to meet people where they are. And you know, for some people, that's a podcast, or some people, that's a book, whatever it may be.
Saadia 21:10
So, Asad, beyond individuals and families, if we look at how societies view other cultures, Muslim culture, and there is no one definition of Muslim culture, right, because Muslims are not a monolith group. You're right, it's important to bridge the gap and create these narratives and show people what Muslim identity really looks like and what it really embodies. But do you ever worry about any culture, whether Muslim, or South Asian, and there are so many intersectionalities and overlap being co-opted in ways? How do we ensure that whatever we are bringing to American discourse, or American political social discourse, it doesn't get co-opted in the process?
Asad 21:52
Or what do you mean by co-opted?
Saadia 21:54
For instance, sometimes dominant populations, right, they recreate or reorient those narratives to fit what is most palatable to the dominant population, and they lose the essence of the actual culture, I can give you an example of yoga, and how many times has it been co-opted and made into something it isn't right. Yeah. So how do you make sure that whatever we are sharing our resources, our thoughts, we keep it in its authentic form?
Asad 22:23
I guess for me what we're going to be striving for with Rifelion for all of our productions that, you know, 50% of the people kind of above the line. So whether it's the talent, like you and me, or the producer, or the researcher writer is a woman or a person of color that kind of comes from that group. And then you know, a goal of mine is also that, you know, 75% of the people below the line. So kind of the people that are doing the, you know, the editing, or like holding the microphone, or whatever, are from those communities. So, you know, I think it's, for me, it's about empowering the content creators and the people from that community to share the stories that matter the most to them. And that's the best way to be most authentic.
Saadia 23:02
I like that. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Let people whose lived experiences tell those stories, and at least be part of the narrative in some form. Right?
[Music]
Saadia 23:22
So I know, you've travel a lot, and you have a story that you wanted to share about a trip to Lebanon, tell me.
Asad 23:29
So you know, I think it's interesting that me being a Muslim with, you know, South Asian heritage, traveling to the Middle East for the first time, right. And I was probably, you know, 27 or so. And, you know, growing up in this culture, I had certain perceptions of what the Middle East were like, based on the media that I consumed, even though I knew a lot of people from the Middle East. And, you know, I grew up in South Asia, but I had definitely had this skewed perception of what the Middle East was.
Saadia 23:55
So what was that perception?
Asad 23:57
So I think it was a dangerous place, or more dangerous than, you know, like, you shouldn't go out at night and people, you know, carrying guns and stuff like that, but it's not as like, you know, sinister, as you see in the movies, but there was a little bit of that influence in there.
Saadia
Some watered down version of it.
Asad
Yeah, you know, like, and so, you know, I land in Lebanon, which, by the way, is one of the most beautiful countries in the world. And I didn't know that at the time, but let in Lebanon, and I'm traveling up to probably like half an hour north of the of Beirut into kind of a small town in the hills. And it's like 11 o'clock at night, and I, you know, been traveling all day from Boston, and I was just like, I want to get out and walk around, but they might not back in my head. I'm like, oh my god, like, you know, is it safe? You know, like, and, you know, you know, my skin goes is light, but I was like I gotta do this. So I ended up going for a little walk, you know, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock at night in this small town. Like every car that drives by I'm like, oh my God, you know, and so like, I just kind of like go left and go right. The further away I get from the hotel, the more like oh my god, like, but then I turn it right and all of a sudden front of me. I see Dunkin Donut. As a Boston boy, I'm like, okay, I'm good, I'm fine. There's a Dunkin Donuts here like, I'll be okay. So that is my Lebanon story.
Saadia 25:19
It's so interesting Asad how perceptions are formed, right? And how we internalize them. No matter who we are, it doesn't matter where we come from. But those perceptions and the lens that we are given to filter things through matches so much. So this story is incredible, because it shows that although you grew up in a Pakistani household in America, you still have those perceptions that the media was trying to project onto you.
Asad
100%.
Saadia
I want to go back to the newest addition to the family. Your baby girl, Isha. Right?
Saadia 25:56
Yeah, I feel like now is the time to air out all the emotions. What are you feeling as a new parent? How has the journey been so far?
Asad 26:07
Yeah, so we are now almost on four weeks. And she came three weeks early, as you know. And as you know, as a mother, the number one feeling that I have is just, I'm tired.
And number two is, you know, I think I'm still trying to figure out my role as a father, as a dad, you know, and I'm trying to be as hands on as possible and still maintain some individuality through work or whatever. I'm unbelievably impressed with all mothers out there that have given birth or even raise kids from youth, like what my wife had to go through in pregnancy, labor and this first month.
Saadia 21:10
And you never know fully right? You will never be able to know what women really good through.
Asad
And, you know, sadly, like there was articles that came out like a month ago, the number of women that still are dying in childbirth, or shortly, you know, thereafter, or the number of infants that died. It's really shocking to, you know, I'm getting a little emotional here. But just like, you know, it's still such a traumatic event, right? And like us and America for us to not be as a society supportive of new mothers and new families. It's just It's mind boggling. What was your experience? Like? Do you remember the first month?
Saadia 27:28
Oh, my gosh, I said, it's been so long. But I do remember one thing, I was depressed, like the first few weeks, I was so depressed. I remember I went into the pediatricians office. I took my daughter, and I started crying,
Asad 27:46
Oh, man.
Saadia 27:46
And I was like, I can't handle this. And I remember pediatrician looking at me, this guy, and I don't blame him. Maybe he didn't know how to handle, you know, postpartum. And he just looked at me. And he was quiet. They weren't any reassurances or any kind words or anything. I cried. I sat there for five minutes and then left.
Asad 28:09
Wow.
Saadia 28:10
And being a new immigrant and being so disoriented in the US and having a baby and not having my family here. It was scary. Yeah, it was so scary.
Asad 28:21
I don't know how you did that. That's crazy. And I imagined your husband was working crazy hours? Because he's a consultant. Yeah,
Saadia 28:27
He wasn't a consultant at the time. But yes, he was still working crazy hours. So that didn't change.
Asad 28:32
And you know, I think this is a very real thing is that postpartum depression. And so we're, my wife and Erica are checking in regularly. And we've been so fortunate that my in laws had been here for the last month, and they're leaving, actually, tomorrow.
Saadia 28:46
And is that scary?
Asad
We're already tried to, yeah, figure out you know what to do with it. My parents will arrive in a couple of weeks and what we'll definitely have support, but having that support for the last month has been amazing.
Saadia
So to me how it has changed who you are as a dad, but as a person. I mean, it's still too early, but I'm just curious, the last four weeks?
Asad 29:08
Honestly, Saadia, I haven't given a lot of thought to that. I mean, I would say that I am thinking a lot more than I ever have been about the opportunities that will be afforded to her growing up. And it's not that I didn't think about that kind of stuff before but you know, especially with what's happening in America with abortion laws, access to health care, even just things of like, we're very fortunate, I feel like to live in Oregon, you know, where it's pretty liberal and progressive. And you know, what if we had given birth in Texas or Florida or somewhere else,
Saadia
You know, you bring up such an important point asset because I think about this a lot too. And I feel like for some women femme identifying folks, they will probably have fewer rights than the generation before them. And Isn't that sad? And isn't that bizarre? And what the hell are we doing as a society? Right? Yeah. And I keep cursing during Ramazan, which I shouldn't, because I'm supposed to detox mentally and physically. I think my physical detox is fine. My mental detox doesn't work.
Asad 30:17
You're smiling more than me.
Saadia
Because our other podcast is about hate crimes. And so it's hard to smile. I think Immigrantly is my happy space. It's where I can be myself. And you're right. When we are discussing hate crimes, it's almost impossible to smile.
Yeah, by the way, I do want to talk about podcasting. Now, you've launched seven podcasts. I said, since 2020. What has your experience been like within the podcasting ecosystem? How do you see it? Do you have any thoughts? Do you have any complaints that you want to share here? Because I have plenty.
Asad 30:57
You know, I think that, like everything I've kind of done in my entire career, there's like, once you dive in, you learn so much about the industry, right? And then I wish that I knew, you know, three years ago, what I know now about how to make a podcast how to, you know, distribute a podcast,
Saadia 31:12
Give me an example.
Asad 31:14
So the very first podcast that we released was called American Muslim project, and was just a weekly interview with notable American Muslims very similar to Immigrantly, but not as highly produced as these episodes. And I remember thinking going into it, I was like, oh, yeah, like, this is a unique thing. And like, once I put it out there, people will find it and listen to it,
Saadia
And it doesn't happen.
Asad
And like, yeah, we probably got a couple 100 downloads an episode type of thing. And but you know, like, it's a lot of work. It's like child. It requires a lot of, you know, daily, you know, monitoring, and I thought that it would be easier to break through the noise. And so podcasting has changed quite a bit in the last couple of years, even the last year, we've seen a lot more money, kind of leave podcasting. And now, like, there's a lot of people that had started podcasting and have stopped or like, there's a lot more focus on like, creating better content. I think, you know, this is just kind of where we are in the industry. And you tell me your thoughts.
Saadia 32:11
I think the hardest thing about podcasting is how to make it impactful, and how to sustain it. I think sustainability and impact are the most crucial components of success. But at the same time, they are hardest to achieve. And that's something that I've experienced through Immigrantly. I see it's a small podcast, but we've been very impactful. And sustainability has been a challenge. But then we've been able to sustain it for the last four years. I think those are the two crucial components, but random thought, hot take.
I think celebrities should not do podcasts. And I'm telling you Asad, as you know, I consume podcasts on a daily basis. And I listened to like a couple of podcasts every day. And I'm not going to reveal which one I listened to today, when I was working out. But I did. I was looking forward to this one celebrity podcast that was supposed to come out. I was excited about it. The host is a huge celebrity. I'm a fan of them. And I started listening. And I was like, fuck it. I can't listen to this nonsense. I wonder if listeners have any thoughts on Celebrity podcasts that they like, or they don't like? And they think these celebrities who stopped producing podcasts would love to hear their thoughts, but also as what do you think about celebrity podcasts in general?
Asad 33:33
You know, it's so tough. I think that there's some celebrities that are doing it right. And there's some that are doing or are not wrong, but like they aren't adding anything unique. Right. I don't listen to any celebrity podcasts. I think the thing with podcasting now is similar to me with what social media was for the last decade is that, like, if you're a celebrity, you almost have to have a podcast now. Because you need to kind of maintain that relationship with your hardcore fans. And so similarly with social media, but you know, it does require a lot of work. I think what we're gonna find, I think we were already finding this is that, like, the economics of having a celebrity podcast where there's only a couple 1000 listeners just doesn't make sense. And it's not worth the time. And so I think we'll see, like, a lot of experimentation with people and people are gonna realize it's not worth it to produce a podcast that takes up, you know, a couple hours a week and doesn't have a return on investment. But what do I know, you know?
Saadia 34:27
After having created seven podcasts, Asad?
Asad 34:30
Well, we're also learning you know, I think that as the industry matures, and we find different ways to monetize, you know, I do think that a lot of podcasting will end up being just another marketing arm for companies and individuals and a way to get new clients and new customers and that kind of stuff. And then we'll have obviously things like what Immigrantly is doing and similar to like, what, you know, YouTube versus TV versus cable TV versus premium TV, there's going to be that wide range of there's going to be entrants that go there, you're gonna be people that you think across all the spectrums, there gonna be people that just focus on like at home podcasting, and we feel in the studio. So and I think that's a healthy thing for the ecosystem is just it's it's really hard to break through all the noise is what it comes down to.
Right. But you did that with King Of The World. And I mentioned it in my intro as well. It's one of the best podcasts that I've listened to do.
Asad
Thank you.
Saadia
But I want to circle back to Rifelion, Asad. How did the name come about?
Asad
So my wife's last name is Rife. R-I-F-E. And Asad in Arabic is Lion. And so we combined that into one. And then I said, you know, this is years ago, I was like, So should it be Rife-lion? And she said, no, it should be “Rifelion.” And so that's how the pronounciation at least came about. So yeah,
Saadia 35:45
I love it. And can I share something with you?
Asad
Sure.
Saadia
Yeah, I was prepping for this interview. And I was like, is Rifelion a word? Now. I'm not a native English speaker. So a lot of times, I'm like, is it an English word that I don't know about? And I Googled it. And every time I would Google it, you know, refill, your media would pop up? Oh, amazing. And then I realized, yeah, maybe it's not a real word. Maybe Asad created something. And now I know the genesis, I'm so yeah, that it's so fun, right? It's funny.
Asad 36:19
The funny thing is, because our baby came in three weeks early, we'd never got to finalize what the baby's last name was going to be. There's a big debate, you know, my wife is very pushing hard for her last name, but I wanted my last name. And so you know, at the end, we actually did the hyphenated, Rife-Butt, but but she was really pushing hard for let's name the baby Rifelion. And I was like, you know, that's great. But like a what if a company fails? B? What if it does so well, that it gets bought out by like, you know, Rupert Murdoch or Fox News or something you like, and then all of a sudden, she's gonna be stuck with this name? For the rest of our lives?
Saadia
Absolutely, Asad. You're also an animal lover, and we could have another episode about animals in your life. Yeah, like every time we record invisible hate, I know that your dog is somewhere in the vicinity. He's right there. He's right there, right. And then you have a picture of your dog, right, your profile picture is that
Asad 37:16
I want to tell you the story, and it might take a while. So my wife has given me three ultimatums in our relationship, and we joke about them all the time. The first one was that she wanted me to introduce her to my parents. Yeah, this is early on in our relationship. And like, she wanted to be part of that. And that was like a really tough thing, as you know, like, it's tough in some cultures to bring someone outside of the culture.
Ultimatum number three was to move across the country because he was living in Portland. I was in Boston, and so did that. But ultimatum number two was to get the dog. Sadly, I think this isn't a stereotype of like Pakistanis. This is like, we're not huge dog lovers. I don't know this is at least growing up. There weren't a lot of people in our community that had dogs.
Saadia
You know, it's interesting. You say that because I see a lot more dogs in Pakistan. Oh, yeah. A lot more dogs. People have dogs at home, which is a crazy, I guess evolution or transition that's happened in the last 20 years. That's great. I love it. But I'm scared of dogs.
Asad
Me too. 35 years I was scared of dogs. I didn't want a dog at all. I didn't understand it. Pets in general. I was like, I don't understand why I like cats. I don't mind cats. I'm allergic to cats. But Erica really wanted a dog. And so ultimatum she got a dog. And I fell in love with this dog saw yet so much so that when I had moved out to Portland, I got a job in the pet care industry and for her that was like the best thing she's ever done in her life is to have me fall in love with the dog and then move to work in the pet care industry. Yeah, I think pets are phenomenal. You asked me earlier in the in the podcast like my feelings towards Isha in this first month like what I can tell you is the my feelings towards Jackson, who was really the first ever being that I've ever had to take care of myself. I had never felt that kind of love before for another entity. The way that I felt about Jackson after having him the joke is like you know, I'm glad that Isha and Jackson my dog are getting along because it'd be horrible to have to get rid of Isha.
Saadia 39:21
Yeah, I've been told I should get a dog. And I mean, who knows? Because I've heard so many stories about people who are not dog lovers falling in love with dogs. Maybe I'll do that. Yeah, maybe I'll have a dog and a cat. Who knows.
Asad 39:35
Saadia, the unconditional love, like once your youngest leaves the house. So she's still there, right.
Saadia 39:40
She's still with me. Yeah,
Asad 39:41
I mean, the dogs will always want to be hugged and nestle with you. They're a warm body. I'm telling you, you'll absolutely love it.
Saadia 39:48
I may do that.
Asad 39:49
I said, We joke about the ultimatums. But I just want you to know and for the record, that I cashed in all three ultimatums from my ultimatum which was to have a little baby and so.
Saadia 39:58
So it all balanced Got it all balanced out.
So in the end, if you were to describe America in a word or a sentence, how would you do that?
Asad 40:12
I guess I would describe it as an open and welcoming community that still kind of like trying to live up to those ideals. You know, I used to travel a lot in the Middle East and Europe and South Asia. And like, I guess when I would describe America, to them, I think that it's still, for me, a place where anything is possible for people that do work hard, and have a little bit of luck, whether they are in that luck, or are given, given that luck. I'm a little bit more optimistic on America than I think, maybe some other people.
Saadia 40:51
So Asad, where can people find more information about 250 on your podcasts? Is there a website they can go to?
Asad 40:59
Certainly rebellion.com. And then Saadia and I have our podcast, which is invisiblehatepodcast.com. And then we also have this cool new project that we're essentially launching soon, which is called Fann. We're cataloging all creative projects on by American Muslims. And so that website is called createfann.com. And then yeah, I'm on all the socials, my social handles is @abuttinportland, you'll find me.
Saadia 41:27
Thank you so much. So this was so wonderful.
Asad
Yeah, Saadia thanks so much.
Saadia
So this turned out to be quite an interesting episode, I discovered things about us that I didn't know, especially his story about Lebanon, right? I mean, it's crazy how narratives are formed and how we think of other people who seem different. Anyways, if you liked this episode, don't forget to share give us a five star review. And don't forget to answer the question that I asked during this episode. If you like a celebrity podcast, share the name with me. If you don't like a celebrity podcast, share the name with me. I want to know what you think.
How do you interact with celebrity podcasts? Do you listen to them? Do you hit them? You dislike them? This episode was produced by me Saadia Khan, written by Michaela Strauther, and me, the editor for our podcast is Haziq Ahmed Farid, and the music is by Simon Hutchinson and our editorial review, as always is done by Shei Yu. Until next time, take care.