Ep. 224 “Storytelling Unleashed: Unveiling the Power of Narrative”
Saadia Khan 0:02
Hello listeners! Welcome to Immigrantly the podcast that defies simplistic narratives surrounding the immigrant experience. I'm your host, Saadia Khan.
Saadia Khan 0:14
As the weather has improved, I have embarked on a more active lifestyle. And to keep me accountable and achieve my fitness and health goals. I've been using a popular fitness app that challenges me to close the ring. Yup, I set a target of 10,000 steps daily thinking it would be a breeze and, oh boy, was I mistaken. Except on hiking days, I haven't reached that goal yet. And the app never lets me forget it. And this got me thinking, why do we establish arbitrary objectives and then measure our self worth by them? And believe it or not, this tendency extends to other aspects of my life, like aiming for a specific number of episode downloads or meeting my family members' expectations? And I was wondering if you set goals and if you fall short, how do you handle it?
Saadia Khan 1:12
Tell me what you think. You can write to me at saadia@immigrantlypod.com. And guys, don't forget to follow us on our socials. And please consider subscribing to our Patreon. It helps us grow and helps us sustain Immigrantly.
Saadia Khan 1:31
Anyways, now let's jump into today's episode.
Saadia Khan 1:36
Our guest today is Eshe Lewis. She is a researcher focusing on the experiences of women of African descent in Peru. Eshe is also a host of the fifth season of the podcast Sapiens, which basically explores what it means to be human. She is the Project Director for the Sapiens Public School training program, holds a PhD in Cultural Anthropology from the University of Florida and has dedicated the past decade to working with Afro-descendant peoples in Peru on issues of social movements, women's issues, black feminism, and gender violence. Her work has made a tangible impact on the communities. I've loved learning about Eshe from her research, but now we learn more about her as a person. So let's get started. [Intro Music]
Saadia Khan 2:50
Eshe, thank you so much for being on Immigrantly. I am so excited that you're here from Lima?
Eshe Lewis 2:58
Oh I'm in Toronto right now in Canada. Yes.
Saadia Khan 3:00
Oh, interesting. I was listening to your podcast today in the morning and I listened to one of the episodes. And when you were recording that episode, you were in Lima.
Eshe Lewis 3:11
I was.
Saadia Khan 3:11
So I assumed you were still in Lima. Oh, nice. Toronto. How do you like it there?
Eshe Lewis 3:17
Well, this is my hometown. It's nice for me to be here. Again. I think at this point as the child of immigrants and then someone who's kind of bicultural because I've spent so much time in Peru. I feel like I'm always somewhere and missing someplace else at the same time. So I love being here. My direct family is here. But Lima is also my home as well. So I always miss Lima and I miss the Caribbean.
Saadia Khan 3:42
Eshe, your family is from Trinidad, right? But you've traveled a lot. I was looking at your educational background and you've been to Colorado, Florida, obviously, Toronto. What place seems more like home? But it seems Toronto is home because that's where you grew up. Is that right?
Eshe Lewis 4:01
So home is complicated, I think as it is for many people, and then you know, like being part of the African diaspora home, it's like super complicated, too. But Toronto feels home and in one very special way, like I grew up here. And so, you know, walking around, even though we've moved a bit, we're sort of in the same neighborhood. So I take a lot of pleasure and walking by places that were, you know, significant parts of my upbringing and seeing how things have changed.
Eshe Lewis 4:29
We are going through some pretty aggressive gentrification in my neighborhood, but feeling like you know, I know this place in a way and I have memories that are attached to it. But then Lima is also home for me in a number of ways too. And, you know, like the smells and being there. And again, sort of like seeing myself and my work reflected in the environment and the food. And then Trinidad is home for me in many ways, too. It's kind of like an ancestral home. You know, I have really fond memories of being there as a child and you know, running around in the cane fields.
Eshe Lewis 4:59
And like following my grandfather in his garden, and then going back at, you know, older as well, it's also getting to spend time with my family there and again, seeing how it's changed. So it's complicated, but it's beautiful, you know, I'm really trying to lean into it. Leaning into the missing to turn a part of it.
Saadia Khan 5:16
I like what you're saying. Home doesn't have to be one place, right? It can be multiple places, it can be a mindset. Sometimes I feel more American than Pakistani and then there are times when I feel more Pakistani than American. And for me, it has really become a mindset more than geographic location or proximity to a particular location. But Eshe, I want to go back to what you said about gentrification. And there's always some debate going on in New York, where I'm based about gentrification of certain communities and how local population is being pushed out. And I want to understand what impact is gentrification having on your neighborhood?
Eshe Lewis 5:58
Well, first of all, I mean, property value in Toronto is just absolutely insane. I mean, homes here, you know, if you don't have a million dollars, no one, literally a million dollars, it's next to impossible to get into the market as a buyer. And that has created a shift both in the faces, I'll give you an extremely local example, I live in a neighborhood that is residential. I'm between a Jewish community and a Caribbean community that is predominantly black. Increasingly, we have a Latin American community that is growing there. I mean, even right, where I live now, near schools, all of a sudden, because there's so much more highway traffic, right, people are coming off the highway and coming to this neighborhood, a lot of people drive their children to a school nearby, which didn't used to be the case.
Eshe Lewis 6:45
So now there are all of these people sort of like flying around the corner is really fast, you can kind of tell who's from the neighborhood or not, because they know there's so many children who walk in this neighborhood to go to and from school, and my mother who worked in the school board for years has taken up her post, you know, a lot of the times I've seen her like literally run into the street to help children cross because these cars are just flying around the corner. And it's this sense of community, right? Like a sense of responsibility and awareness about the neighborhood that I feel people lose, right or if it isn't your neighborhood, and you're just getting to know what you don't understand, you know, this is important because there's a school right there.
Eshe Lewis 7:25
This is important because historically as a landing spot for Caribbean immigrants, the storefronts that might look shabby, to some people are, you know, bulwarks of the community.
Saadia Khan 7:36
Right.
Eshe Lewis 7:36
And so to have all of this traffic come in, because of construction of a new metro line, a lot of fencing went off, right, so a lot of these businesses closed because of the noise because people couldn't walk in off the street that's like very Caribbean, right? Like, you just walk around and kind of pop into places and wander and it stopped that. And so even something as small as seeing more cars means something different, it means something for children in this neighborhood, it means something for elderly people who might need help crossing the street, it means something for the fiber of community, right? Like people feeling like they can have access to the spaces that make them feel comfortable.
Eshe Lewis 8:11
And so that plus these really prohibitive costs of homes, but really just makes such a difference in the way that we live our lives on a daily basis. You know, there's this kind of running joke, people start getting really nervous when they start naming streets after certain members of the community, because you're like, oh, gosh, they're gonna get rid of us that will be there as a street name, right? So it's this kind of like, tension that exists there where people are like, yes, we deserve to be recognized, you cannot have our culture without us. But on the other hand, we hope you don't think it's enough to just have the name of our community somewhere.
Eshe Lewis 8:47
And so I think in this time, where there is this growing awareness, and communities here, are really determined to hold their ground, there is a lot of really beautiful organizing, that's taking place to be very, very intentional about allowing people to maintain access to their space. And you know, we'll see what that looks like moving forward. That is something that gives me a lot of hope.
Saadia Khan 9:10
That's good to hear. But what do you think, coming together with look like?
Eshe Lewis 9:15
I don't know, I think like, there's always a fear of the unknown of like, this is the way we have done things for so long. What does this mean for the future? I think perhaps there is some hope in the fact that at least in Toronto is a study well, it's called a city of immigrants. That's problematic in some ways.
Saadia Khan 9:34
Why do you think?
Eshe Lewis 9:35
Well, I mean, when you talk about a study of immigrants, there's this sort of like, you can erase the past in a way if it's just always a city of immigrants, and everything is new. And so we don't have to pay attention to the history we live in on indigenous territory. Right. And I think particularly as someone of African descent, you know, my family immigrated here in the 70s because that's when a lot of the racist laws that prohibited people of African descent from entering this country in a way were lifted.
Eshe Lewis 10:05
But there are also black communities that have been here for generations. And when we just kind of say like, oh, everyone's just arriving, well, then you lose the fact that people have been here, people have been creating their space here for a long time. And so it lends itself to sometimes irresponsible way of thinking about who's here and who is being displaced. Right? We don't have to think about that if we're all just arriving.
Saadia Khan 10:28
Right. So how would you rephrase that instead of city of immigrants? What would you say?
Eshe Lewis 10:34
I think this is just thinking about dynamic spaces. Maybe that's a better way of saying it. Because I think there's also in certain ways of thinking about people and how we move, it is also unfair to say, you know, like, just because a certain group of people have been here for a really long time doesn't mean that they weren't interacting with new people as well. It doesn't mean that they weren't moving, it doesn't mean that they, you know, just did one thing all the time, they were constantly changing as well. And so I think getting back to your previous question about what does the future look like, I think maybe one of the strengths of Toronto is that we do remember that this community, or actually, oh, I'll give a better example.
Eshe Lewis 11:13
There's a place in Toronto, it's called Kensington Market, and it's this very bright, vibrant place, it was also the center where people in their, you know, different immigration waves would arrive. And so you have Portuguese and Americans, you have Italian immigrants, you have Jamaican immigrants, they all came to this place, right? And so even though you can look at a part of the city and say, Okay, this is Koreatown, this is a, you know, sort of like a Brazilian space, there's also an understanding that before them, there were other people there.
Eshe Lewis 11:39
And so I think there is some level of assurance in remembering that if people were here before, and we are here now, and we still remember and interact with them, then there is a way for us in the future to interact with and welcome people who are different than you. Now, obviously, there are power dynamics there. But I think it gives us some example to look at.
Saadia Khan 12:03
Right.
Eshe Lewis 12:03
To know that we are not the first people to have to deal with this, right? Like even in a country that might look really homogenous, there's always this sort of reshuffling of the way. So I think there's got to be some hope in that, that like, we can figure this out with respect and like an understanding of how we want to do it, right. But it's possible.
Saadia Khan 12:22
I like to respect and understanding component of it, at the end of the day, just recognizing each other's humanity. That's what matters.
Eshe Lewis 12:31
Definitely. [Music]
Saadia Khan 12:40
Eshe, I want to talk about your work. Now you are hosting fifth season of Sapiens. And as a fellow podcaster, I am really intrigued by the concept of the podcast, which basically is how to be human. And it got me thinking, what aspect of human identity are you trying to investigate through this podcast? How do we become human?
Eshe Lewis 13:06
I think what we try to do, and I will say, Sapiens is an Anthropology magazine. And being an anthropologist, it's really hard to define what Anthropology is, it's not this very small, niche discipline, right like that.
Eshe Lewis 13:21
You can go to an anthropology conference, and everyone's kind of doing their own thing. And you know, they're working with different theories and working on different spaces. And for example, I work in Peru a lot, or have in the past, but I'm not an archaeologist. And so for me, it's kind of about making space to explore different aspects of humanity. That's always something that we're trying to define.
Eshe Lewis 13:42
I think storytelling is deeply human.
Saadia Khan 13:44
Yeah.
Eshe Lewis 13:45
I think this idea of oral history, I think it's something that we've been doing for 1000s of years, this idea of, you know, what I know, I learned from people around me, who told me about the people who came before me passing on knowledge, you know, even in a workplace setting, right? Like you're telling someone about the institutional knowledge you have, right, as a podcast host, you tell people how you came to do what you've done, right? And we're all sort of generating these stories together.
Eshe Lewis 14:12
And so Sapiens season five, has been such a great experience. It was my first time hosting a podcast. And so it was really exciting to get into the studio and do all of that. But it also really helped that we have these wonderful fellows who have done a tremendous job putting together the stories that they have told so well. And so I think the storytelling in itself is kind of like what makes us human in some ways, this ability to look at whether it's belongings or objects to look at a phenomenon and think about the meaning behind it, right? Like humans, we're really interested in making meaning out of things. We're always like, what does it mean? What are the signs? What are the stars say, what is the ocean telling us? What is it that we're learning about living together and living in the world we live in?
Eshe Lewis 14:57
Right and so I think as a collection if we look at the collection of podcast episodes, they're each a case study and how to make sense of something that's going on from the perspective of a researcher, but also drawing on the knowledge that people who we work with, as anthropologists give to us, right? Like they're experts in their own right, whether it's because they're professionals or because they live through it. We're really interested in hearing their stories, and then weaving them together with those of other people to give both this micro and macro view of what's going on.
Saadia Khan 15:32
Eshe, I want to expand this conversation a bit and talk about how you converting research and academic language into conversational language, because storytelling is about anecdotes. And it's about simplifying vernacular so that it resonates with the wider audience.
Saadia Khan 15:50
And as I was listening to different episodes of Sapiens, I wondered, how has your cohort tried to manage that and make it more palatable for listeners who may not be researchers or may not have academic background?
Eshe Lewis 16:05
Yeah, so this is the work of Sapiens in general, is like helping academics translate their work, and it takes a lot of time and practice to do it. And everyone kind of does it in a different way. And Sapiens is not the only, you know, outlet that does this, I think there's an increased effort to bring what is done in academia outside, right. Like, I think something like 2% of the world's population ends up getting a higher education degree, right? And so we are really privileged, those of us who are or have been in academia to have the time not only the time, right, because who has the time to literally just dedicate to research, right? Like, here's a bunch of money, disappear, come back with something interesting to say, right? Like, what other job can you get where they're like, we'll see you next year. And you hopefully have something to say like, it's kind of crazy when you think about it.
Eshe Lewis 16:56
Right?
Saadia Khan 16:56
Right.
Eshe Lewis 16:57
But then they come back, you know, people come back with these really interesting insights and breakthroughs. And it's a shame because a lot of that just stays among this, you know, like very small group of people. And a lot of this knowledge is really important, not only because it's about people that we spoke to, right, and so thinking ethically, that these people have a right to know what we're saying about them, right? Like, this has been a big critique of anthropology, like you're just parachuting into learn about our lives, and then you disappear with all this information that you benefit from.
Eshe Lewis 17:26
And we don't know what happens to our stories or how you're portraying us. So there's a transparency issue there. But we've also seen other anthropologists throughout history, right. And usually, they're Black, they're indigenous, they're people of color, who have said, you know, we really do value talking about people in their own terms, right, and the importance of sharing this with the world.
Eshe Lewis 17:46
Usually in our Sapien sessions, we talk about Jane Goodall, who did work with chimpanzees, and how when she realized they were using tools the way humans do, she said, immediately like, this is important as a scientific discovery. But this is also really important for the rest of the world to know, what we do through the magazine is kind of walk people through the process of making what can seem scary to someone who isn't an academic or doesn't know anything about that particular niche, how we can draw them in.
Eshe Lewis 18:17
So things like getting rid of jargon, like those sorts of very highly specialized terms that work really well, when you're in a room with people who understand you.
Saadia Khan 18:26
Yeah.
Eshe Lewis 18:27
Thinking about your audience. Who is it that you want to tell this story to?
Saadia Khan 18:31
So who are you telling this story to?
Eshe Lewis 18:33
So Sapiens really is for anyone who has an interest in these stories, right? Like we're thinking about people who are intelligent, we're thinking about people who are inquisitive, but who may not have, you know, years of years of academic experience. That's basically who this is for.
Eshe Lewis 18:50
So thinking about your audience, right? Like, what is it that they want to know, we talk a lot about storytelling, so leading with your heart and not your head. Like, what is it about the story that is going to draw people in, we think a lot about how to frame this story, tell us something funny and tell us something that's interesting, tell us something that is human that we can relate to right, so that people are feeling open? And we talk a lot about that, right? Like, what's the difference between a theme and a story? Right? So bridging those kinds of gaps.
Saadia Khan 19:21
Eshe, talk to me about the importance of being a good listener to other people's experiences, right? Because that's what you're doing through Sapiens, the podcast, how important is it to be a good listener? And were you always a good listener? Or did you learn the skill? Because it takes time. If I look back, I think I've become a better listener now after having done Immigrantly for four years than I was four years ago.
Eshe Lewis 19:48
As far as listening goes, it can be really hard. Yeah, I'm a talker. I'm very chatty. I think that's a strength but also a weakness because I want to connect with people I want to tell them right and I think when you're talking to someone, a lot of what we tried to do is also insert ourselves into it, right?
Eshe Lewis 20:05
Like we're trying to show people that we understand or we have a similar story. But I think it goes beyond just letting someone talk and more towards listening to what it is that they're saying, and what they're not saying. I think that is really important.
Eshe Lewis 20:20
And I think, you know, my work has been on gender violence. And so it is really important in those sorts of spaces, working with black women who are, you know, doubly triply marginalized, it is very rare to get someone in front of your microphone, your face, who was just going to tell you flat out, this is how things are, or this is why things are the way they are, if you are not capable of really listening to the silences and figuring out what they're saying what they're talking about, asking them in really gentle ways to expand on what they're saying, you lose it, right, like you get up and you think it went well. And then you listen to your interview. And you're like, I missed the opportunity to really ask someone about what's going on. So I think that that is the skill I'm always working on. [Music fades in] I don't get it right all the time. But I think being aware that it's important, makes a huge difference.
Saadia Khan 21:19
Esche, let's talk about your work, which is focused on intimate partner violence. That's a difficult subject to tackle. And I'm curious to know, why did you choose to concentrate on that? And also, how do you strike a balance between doing research and not allowing your work or the stories that you're hearing or the research that you're collecting to be commodified in a way versus amplifying voices of people whose stories you are listening to, right, because there's a fine line between commodifying somebody's trauma and amplifying and uplifting them.
Eshe Lewis 21:57
I have always approached anthropology and my work and kind of practical terms. I'm very interested in making myself useful. And I think for me, you know, I really love working on the African diaspora just in general, like that is you know where I come from. But also, it's just what I love to do.
Eshe Lewis 22:15
So I started working in Peru in 2009, I went to Peru to do a documentary about Afro Peruvians, and was really received by some of the most generous, intelligent, wonderful people I've ever met. And so I kept going back to continue my work. And around the time as I was in my master's program, I was sexually assaulted.
Eshe Lewis 22:37
And I had a really hard time just living my life, right, I had a thesis to write. I wasn't at home, I was in the US. And I started really thinking about gender violence in general, right and thinking about it as a black woman. And what I was learning about how common this was for women, period, right, like women, trans women, like, you know, non binary people, it was astounding. And then when you add race into it, it was getting even worse. And so I had all of these questions, and I still wanted to work in Peru. And so I went back, and on one of my trips, I really started talking to a lot of the women who are activist who I deeply admire and saying, I am listening to a discussion that is increasing in Peru about gender violence, and there's a lot of talk about Indigenous woman. But mainly there's just talk about women in general.
Eshe Lewis 23:25
And I kept saying, you know, I'm not hearing people talk about black women in this environment at all. It's either because it's not happening, or because no one wants to talk about it, both of which I find disturbing for different reasons.
Saadia Khan 23:39
Exactly.
Eshe Lewis 23:40
Yeah. And so I said to them, first of all, why is this not being researched? And they said, you know, it's money and it's time, you know, it's very rare to have the money in the time to do that kind of research. And I said, okay, well, if that is the case, is this something worth researching? And they said, absolutely, you know, there's a number of reasons that black women just don't get left behind. Now, everyone talks about intersectionality. But truly, really, right. Like it was kind of like, you got this fight for black equality. You gotta fight for women. And then black women are just kind of like lost in the middle.
Eshe Lewis 24:07
And they said, this is happening. It is definitely happening. We know it's happening because we work in these communities. We're from these communities, and it absolutely needs to be addressed. And so I said, okay, this is what I'm going to do for my dissertation research. And so I spent a year and a half working in Lima, learning about women's experiences, learning about the government's responses, going back and forth between those two entities like going from emergency centers to women's homes to working at a Black Feminist Collective that I co founded while I was there, gave me a really ample overview of what was taking place. And it was really hard.
Eshe Lewis 24:42
You know, like, it was really hard for a number of reasons.
Saadia Khan 24:45
Yeah.
Eshe Lewis 24:45
there was not a lot of data. Mine was the first ever study that was done on black woman in Peru of the woman who reported that year nationally, I think there were about 25 And I talked to 12 of them. So it's not a huge number, but I talked to literally half of the women who, you know, reported to emergency centers in the very first year that there was even a question about race and violence. So it was really hard.
Eshe Lewis 25:08
But you know, it is always tricky trying to figure out like, where do I fit into this because I do think it's deeply important to be true to those voices of those women who took the time to talk to me, which they did not have to do, and also to grapple sort of like with myself in that, right, as someone who had also experienced that and had a very deep, intimate tie to this topic.
Eshe Lewis 25:27
One of the things that really helped me was that feminist organizing, I did, really tying myself to the idea that we are not just suffering, we are not just these painful moments that are happening to us, these women that I'm talking to, can be referred to as victims or survivors. But that's kind of not the point. The point is they have these whole lives that are interrupted by violence, but they are working through their lives as the protagonist of their lives. And so a lot of my writing the executive report I wrote to the, you know, Peruvian government, the Ministry of Women, the UN report that I helped write is very much centered around the fact that these are women who are A. Deeply aware of what's going on with them B. Very capable of critically understanding their lives and what's going on with them, C. Who are trying to claw their way back from this and D. Who are more than this experience, right? Like this is a hindrance to their lives.
Saadia Khan 26:22
Exactly.
Eshe Lewis 26:23
And so our job here is to a understand what's going on and be make create the conditions that make this impossible to happen.
Saadia Khan 26:30
Eshe, first of all, I'm so sorry that you experienced that. But then to turn it around and create this community of women and help them express their agency, because all of us do have agency. But sometimes we don't have platforms or spaces to express that. So thank you for doing that.
Saadia Khan 26:50
And is there anything that you learned through this process, or any breakthrough or watershed moment that you had having these conversations with women there?
Eshe Lewis 26:59
I will definitely say there's things that we know, because we read them. And then there are things that we know, because we live them.
Saadia Khan 27:05
I will stop you here.
Saadia Khan 27:07
And can you please say this again, it is such an important point. And people don't understand this.
Eshe Lewis 27:12
It is.
Eshe Lewis 27:13
There is what we know, because we read it. And there's what we know, because we live it.
Saadia Khan 27:17
Absolutely.
Eshe Lewis 27:18
And I think that that was a constant breakthrough moment for me. And I think that this is what makes me so defensive. Sometimes when I talk about the work that I've done, you know, I got into my share of arguments with the journal referees who were saying, you know, like, I don't really know if you should write this story this way. And I said, No, I am writing it this way.
Saadia Khan 27:40
Good for you.
Eshe Lewis 27:41
For me, it's like a matter of respect, but also integrity for myself, I'm not going to deny the intelligence of the woman that I am working with, because it makes you uncomfortable. They know what's going on. And they are who we need to understand if we are going to make the situation better. They are the experts. And we're going to defer to them. You know, and a lot of that was painful, right? So kind of like hearing woman say, you know, I understand that this is happening to me, because I'm a woman. But I understand that this is happening to me, because I'm black. And people don't value me as much as they would somebody else.
Eshe Lewis 28:13
But I do think that there are also these really beautiful breakthrough moments, right? Like listening to women say, this horrible thing happened to me and my mom stepped in, and my sister stepped in and other people in my life and it didn't happen all the time. But hearing people say, I am tapping into my network, I am going to find the people I can trust, I know that there are other women who are going to believe me who are going to step in and help me. And again, I think that the work with the organizing that I did was just so powerful for me to have these, you know, really difficult days sometimes. And then to come into this space and just be like, you know, let's laugh together.
Saadia Khan 28:48
Right.
Eshe Lewis 28:48
we are here for each other through these difficult conversations. And then lastly, I would say it's always really difficult for me because I work on systems and structures. And so like understanding that a structure can be racist, but that people in them are sometimes trying really hard. It's not like a you know, the system is fine. We just have bad apples. It's not that.
Saadia Khan 29:06
It's not that. It's the system.
Eshe Lewis 29:07
It is the system. But a lot of the people I also spoke with were people who were working in women's emergency centers, like attending to woman on a daily basis, and they were working under really poor circumstances, but like really bad, you know, didn't have the resources that they need. Yeah, but the work that some of them were doing, like really listening to women and really doing everything in their power to make them as comfortable as possible. So that they could come in was really incredible.
Eshe Lewis 29:35
And after me being there in their faces for a year and a half having really interesting conversations with people who would finally say, you know, I'm Indigenous, and I didn't feel comfortable saying that before. But you know, now that we're talking about race and violence, like I'm going to talk to women in Aymara or Quechua, because I know that that will make them feel more comfortable or hearing one woman say, you know, I didn't realize it until you showed up but I'm actually black.
Eshe Lewis 29:58
Like, I didn't realize that, but I am and really saying, you know, there are a black woman who do come in here and I want them to feel comfortable talking to me about their experiences. And so seeing the mind shift was also really profound to me, right? Because I think we can get really jaded and just say like, this is horrible, and it's never gonna change. Even though there are some really serious systemic issues that need to be addressed. It was very heartening for me to see people say, I am thinking about this in a different way, right? It's like we are able to learn right? So there were certainly very beautiful moments in that work.
Saadia Khan 30:36
I love that.
Saadia Khan 30:37
Eshe I want to pivot to something that I was listening to in the morning from Sapiens. And it really spoke to me because I grew up in Pakistan and spices, peppers, are such an integral part of my identity and our food. And I was listening to this episode called "People of The Peppers."
Excerpt 30:59
So what is it that got you on the chili path as an academic?
Katie Chu 31:04
I'm a paleoethno botanist. So I'm essentially an archaeologist that looks at archaeological plant remains.
Saadia Khan 31:10
And it was such an interesting conversation and you brought up something about your grandma's sauce, and I was like, oh my gosh, I am going to ask Eshe about that sauce. And if she could share that recipe with us, is that even possible?
Eshe Lewis 31:26
Oh, yeah. Okay, so that's Katie Chu, who works on chili peppers, just one of the wonderful human beings that we have and part of our fellowship program. They really are all just incredible people.
Eshe Lewis 31:37
But yes, so I am Trini. And we love pepper sauce. And my grandmother made her own pepper sauce. I actually need to ask my mom to see if there was a recipe for this.
Saadia Khan 31:48
Ah.
Eshe Lewis 31:48
It was so hot. Like, we would put a fork like a plastic fork in it. And then you just sort of like flick it at your food, because you couldn't mix it. It was so hot.
Saadia Khan 31:57
So what is your tolerance level when it comes to peppers?
Eshe Lewis 32:01
You know, so you know, they have this like Hot Ones show. And it's just people just burning the taste sensors off their tongues. So I don't know if I would be eating something that ridiculously hot, but I like spice. I don't know, it just adds another dimension to your food. So I enjoy it. I know some Pakistani food can be like tremendously hot. [Laughter]
Eshe Lewis 32:23
So I try my best to hang with the best of them. But I love pepper. And we have so many foods in Trinidad that because it's a mix of both African and East Indian foods we have like all of these different interesting pepper combinations. So I'm glad that that resonated with you too. And I happen again to like work in a place like Peru where people eat spicy food.
Eshe Lewis 32:44
Now that I think about it's kind of like a continuing line for me being around people and cultures that really value like colorful food, but also, you know, like really amping things up with some spice.
Saadia Khan 32:57
So my favorite pepper is green chili. It just evokes certain emotions. It brings up childhood memories that I have. And to be honest, it reminds me of home. So I tried to put green chili in every goddamn thing that I can.
Saadia Khan 33:15
And I think it's more transcendent in some ways. I've seen other cultures use green chili more than red pepper. I don't know if that's true, but I'm just making stuff up right now. But we'd love to hear your thoughts. Do you have any favorite spice?
Eshe Lewis 33:29
Okay, so on the pepper front, Peru? Yes, you would love it. I don't know if you've been or if you're planning to go but if you do you need to go to a market. I love market culture. I love market women. They're so funny and so smart like their knowledge of produce and food and cooking. I'm like they're obsessed with fresh products. Yeah, so like Peruvians the part of the reason I think their food tastes so good is like super picky palates, because they can tell if that parsley is not fresh.
Eshe Lewis 33:58
Right?
Eshe Lewis 33:58
I always get nervous if I have to cook for a Peruvian because I'm just like, oh god. [Laughs]
Eshe Lewis 34:03
But the food is so good because everything is so fresh. So in Peru, what would I say is my favorite. There's like a yellow one. But there's also a red one that's super hot. It's called Limo. That's the one that you normally eat with ceviche.
Eshe Lewis 34:17
There's also Aji Colorado. But this is a big one that they dehydrate. And so they sell it and they're really really light. So you buy a bag of them, it just feels like air. And that's what I described in that episode of Katie where you have to rehydrate them and so people sometimes use it because they're spicy, but sometimes they also just use it to color the food. So you put the dried peppers in a boiling pot of water and they sort of rehydrate them and then you put them in a blender and you make a paste and you use that paste to cook.
Eshe Lewis 34:46
I don't know what the process is but when the water hits those dried peppers, they like come back from the dead and it creates this like pepper cloud. So you walk into a kitchen and then all of a sudden you have a coughing fit.
Saadia Khan 34:58
Yeah, the coughing fit right and we're all used to it. Yeah. It's like your rite of passage. It's fine. You know it right? It is going to happen. But then you're okay with it.
Eshe Lewis 35:11
Yeah. And it becomes kind of like weirdly comforting, because you're like, oh, it's gonna be good. I know what this is, I know what's coming. And then everyone else. If someone else walks in the kitchen that happens, you kind of look at each other, and you're like, Oh, this is gonna be good. And again, right? Like, those are these very specific moments that you bond over when you are from a certain place. And so if you meet another, if I meet another Peruvian, and I'm like, oh, yeah, you know, I walked in the kitchen. And they're like, Yeah, we know, you know. So it's like this beautiful connecting line. And then in terms of my favorite spice in general, well, from like, Trini cuisine, I really love Kuchela, which is, do you know that I was like, mango, that you grate. And then you put like pepper in it.
Saadia Khan 35:51
Oh, my gosh, that will be so delicious.
Eshe Lewis 35:54
Yeah. And it's dark, and you put it on everything. Like you can put it on anything. It's kind of tiny. It can be really hot, but it's like tiny and kind of salty. I love it.
Saadia Khan 36:05
Oh, my gosh, I want to have it.
Saadia Khan 36:17
Eshe, talk to me about any interesting episodes that people should look out for any interesting topics that you're exploring on the podcast.
Eshe Lewis 36:27
So we have seven episodes, the last one as being released this week.
Eshe Lewis 36:32
It really depends on what you want.
Eshe Lewis 36:34
We have this really great piece by Adam Netzer Zimmer, who is in Iceland, and who works on the skeletal collections, right?
Eshe Lewis 36:44
So understanding how certain skeletal remains end up, in this case, in the Peabody Museum, and Harvard, so takes us on this really fabulous story. And there's music and there's ocean sounds like really taking people back in time to understand how some of this happened, right. And that's really important because of conversations that are going on right now about repatriation. And so museums trying to give ancestral remains back and as well as other belongings. So that's a really interesting episode.
Eshe Lewis 37:14
We have Brendan Tines, who did a piece on violence against black women and non binary people in Baltimore, also extremely moving and beautifully done. We have someone else Kofi Nomedji, who goes to Togo to talk about coastal erosion, which, as someone from an island, I find really concerning.
Saadia Khan 37:34
Such an important conversation.
Eshe Lewis 37:36
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we certainly published a few pieces on Sapiens, the magazine about coastal erosion in parts of India, you know, just like what it does to the entire surrounding environment. Oh, my gosh, we just have so many incredible pieces. I really think there's something in there for everyone, I think, and I'm just so proud of the work that they've done.
Saadia Khan 37:56
By the time our episode releases all Sapien episodes would have released by then so check out any episode that resonates with you.
Eshe Lewis 38:05
Please do.
Saadia Khan 38:10
And in the end, Eshe, if you were to describe America, and the reason why I'm asking you about America, because America is also home, right for you. You've studied here, you know the place, how would you define it?
Eshe Lewis 38:22
America is like 1000 worlds in one space.
Eshe Lewis 38:26
I love that, you know, the very end of Men in Black. It's like the marbles, right? Like the Orion belt marbles. And so you realize that like, you know, Orion's Belt is one marble, and then that there's an alien that picks it up and drops that marble into a bag of marbles. And you're like, Oh, my God, it's a bag of galaxies. And it's all in this one bag. And they're all like knocking against each other, and that kind of America, and maybe lots of other places. But yeah, it's this place where all of these worlds are, like, bumping up against each other in this bag.
Saadia Khan 38:56
Right
Eshe Lewis 38:57
And people are kind of trying to figure out who they are in relation to somebody else, and what is shared and what is not. And this sort of like dispute and growth and backtracking to come forward again. Yeah, it's like a bag of Galaxy marbles.
Saadia Khan 39:11
I'm love it, Eshe. This is such an interesting analogy and description.
Saadia Khan 39:17
So in the end, tell me where can people find your podcast? And is there a website they can go to see your work, especially what you've done in Peru.
Eshe Lewis 39:26
I work at Sapiens magazine, which is sapiens.org. We have a podcast section there so you can find the transcripts, as well as the episodes from this season and past seasons. Or you can also find the podcast anywhere you listen to podcast.
Eshe Lewis 39:41
My website is eshelewis.com. I've got my smattering of work. I do a bunch of different things. So there's a bit of everything there. If you are on Instagram, every once in a while I post or you can find me @EsheLewis and I also have a Black Mom's project that I run, talking about black moms before they were moms and what they did.
Eshe Lewis 40:03
And that's called the antemadre project you can check it out there. And if you want to send me a picture of your mom doing something before she had kids, that's where you can find me.
Saadia Khan 40:16
Thank you so much.
Saadia Khan 40:17
Eshe, this was so so good.
Eshe Lewis 40:19
Thank you so much, Saadia. It was lovely talking to you.
Saadia Khan 40:26
So this episode got me thinking about so many different things as she sharing her personal experience. Eshe said something that really struck me in ways that I wasn't thinking about it before, when she talked about how when we call a place, you know, city of immigrants, what impact does it have on population that already exists there?
Saadia Khan 40:52
And that's something that I am going to sink about more and ruminate over and if you have any thoughts, do you agree? Do you not agree? What are your thoughts on it? I would love to hear your feedback. You can always write to me at saadia@immigrantly pod.com.
Saadia Khan 41:08
This episode was produced by me Saadia Khan, written by me and Rainier Harris. Our editorial review as always is done by Shei Yu and our incredible incredible editor is Haziq Ahmed Farid. Until next time, take care. (Music fades out)