Ep. 226 “Unmasking Our Emotional Identities” with Raha Francis

Saadia Khan 0:05

Hello, and welcome to Immigrantly, a groundbreaking podcast about the various iterations of the immigrant experience. I am your host and producer of the show, Saadia Khan.

Saadia Khan 0:17

If you're anything like me, an avid podcast listener, you understand the power of storytelling and its potential to bridge gaps, inspire change, and ignite conversations that matter. And that's exactly what we're doing here.

Saadia Khan 0:36

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Saadia Khan 1:02

Anyways, recently while listening to an episode of Feel Better, Live More by Dr. Chatterjee– it's a podcast– I stumbled on this fascinating discussion.

Saadia Khan 1:14

The episode explored the universality of emotions, how people are wired to respond in different situations, and what fuels our anger and sadness. Dr. Chatterjee's guest Batja Mesquita, a social psychologist challenged conventional beliefs by suggesting that emotions do not reside solely within individuals, but rather between us subject to cultural and societal influences, and I was blown away by this conversation.

Saadia Khan 1:48

This conversation, in fact, has struck a chord with me, particularly regarding the concept of respect and disrespect within the parent-child dynamic. Now, in my household, it has somewhat become a contentious issue. And I'll tell you why.

Saadia Khan 2:05

As a parent, I believe I deserve respect, expecting not to be yelled at or subjected to hurtful words. However, living in the US I have observed that children have an interesting relationship with their parents, they often assert themselves and their emotional privilege, sometimes even disregarding their parents' emotions and feelings.

Saadia Khan 2:30

I'm sure you guys have heard the phrase, I hate you, or I love my mom, but I hate my mom. Now, this clash of perspectives has left me grappling with how to navigate the delicate balance of cultural expectations, emotional authenticity, and effective communication with my daughters. But beyond my personal experience, I'm also intrigued to understand how we reconcile our emotional identities and uncover common ground. How can we bridge the gap between generations and cultures to foster empathy, understanding and mutual respect? Today's episode is about exploring a spectrum of emotions while being true to oneself. And we talk about all of this stuff and more. I am speaking with Raha Francis today, a business and legal strategist and consultant born into Dubai South Asian parents law has family emigrated to Canada when she was very young. I'm sure she is a fantastic business strategist.

Saadia Khan 3:43

But that's not really what this episode is all about. I wanted to chat to Raha about so much more than her career because as people we have so much more to offer than just our professions. And honestly, that's kind of what I want to talk about today. You see, Raha also has a weekly newsletter called Raha's Thingses is where she explores what it means to be kind to ourselves, tap into our inner child and come a little more alive. Her words, not mine.

Saadia Khan 4:16

By the way, during our interview, Raha refers to a podcast episode that I shared with her and this is the same podcast episode that I mentioned in the beginning. So if you're looking for a little life coaching, boost, or some much-needed mental clarity, I suggest giving her newsletter readers when I am so excited for this episode, our conversation will blow your mind away. So let's get started.

Saadia Khan 5:07

Hello, Raha I am so excited to have you on Immigrantly.

Raha Francis 5:11

Hi Saadia, I'm so excited to be here.

Saadia Khan 5:14

We just had this very interesting episode where we were trying to get your mic started. And I could see a lot of frustration that you were feeling, and you just wanted to get it fixed. And then we went on GarageBand. And you're like, let me work GarageBand and it was really bothering you. I could see that you're somebody who wants to fix things. And it bothers you when you can't fix something. Is that true?

Raha Francis 5:43

In some ways, so deeply yes, and you know, Saadia, to answer it. I think it just matters, like where I am in the situation. That is if I see, okay, here are potential roads that are not being explored. I can be ruthless. Like, every door, like I'll try it five times. Yet, when I know that a door is completely shut, something kind of switches, I don't know, it's kind of like, okay, that's done.

Raha Francis 6:09

So let's see what's in front of us. And I seem to have a poor memory sometimes for how frustrating things can be, even though I can just seem so [inaudible] in that moment, when do you know that door is closed? Part of it can be when, you know, it's just kind of a very obvious sign like there was a deadline to make a decision and the decision has been made.

Raha Francis 6:09

Another way for me of looking at it is when the efforts to like pursue this and be dogged cut at the benefits that I'll get from shifting perspective. And usually sometimes, you know, that means, okay, I tried all this, and I couldn't get it. And I'm in a position now to maybe learn from the situation or explore it. And if continuing to persist prevents me from being able to make use of these new opportunities that feels like a waste.

Raha Francis 7:00

It's a strange balance for me, because on the one hand, I love the idea of trying to see things through. But on the other hand, I think it's important to be open to what the world has to tell us. And sometimes that can't be possible. If you're so single-minded.

Saadia Khan 7:15

I love that. And I've always considered myself as somebody who is a problem solver or will try to resolve things, whether it's in relationships, or outside. And I just saw a glimpse of that in you today. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have to ask her this question. But let's go back to where I wanted to originally start.

Saadia Khan 7:41

Talk to me about where you are in your life right now. And what makes you you?

Raha Francis 7:48

When you asked me my initial question, I had this kind of flashback to when I was applying for university. And I was like hell-bent on going to this one university had gotten a scholarship. And it was just kind of far away, I had a completely different perspective. And my dad laughs because he still remembers how, you know, the day before the deadline for entering our school decisions. I like said I'd sleep in the car, I only lasted like an hour.

Raha Francis 8:12

You know, I was so determined. If you don't let me make this decision. I just don't know what I'll do. And it's funny because, you know, I didn't get to make the decision that I wanted to. But after that deadline, you know, in my first year in my new school, I remember feeling like there was a pang of like all the things that I'd wanted with that other decision, the benefits that I'd seen, perhaps added freedom or different kinds of experiences I might not have been able to get but there was so much beauty in the unique nature of the path that I had pursued. And part of that wasn't fully by choice, right?

Raha Francis 8:47

But there was so much beauty, partly through an ability to expose myself to experiences that I hadn't even predicted, and also an inability to find that freedom, but in a slightly differently kind of defined way. And I look back on that. And I'm realizing I kind of what makes me me, part of that is having really strong instincts on the kind of life that I want to lead and trying to live by certain principles or values that have always made sense to me, but also kind of navigating through the world in a way that lets me see its magic. Kind of see the opportunities that it can afford me in ways that I might not have known before because I wasn't paying attention or in kind of creative ways that can align with my values in ways I might not have realized.

Raha Francis 9:35

It's funny that I guess that example of stubborn younger Raha kind of holds true and kind of what makes me me in a way.

Saadia Khan 9:44

So Raha, you grew up in Canada. But you're currently based in the US, right?

Raha Francis 9:50

Well, yes and no. So I was until recently based in the US. I grew up in Canada went to undergrad and Toronto. and went to law school and then worked for quite a few years in the States, mainly on the East Coast and then returned back.

Saadia Khan 10:09

Raha, talk to me about your relationship with your parents, you and I have had conversation before this interview, right? And you talk about them in such an endearing way. It seems like you have such a beautiful relationship with your parents. But you've also talked about fear based parenting versus love based parenting. And you've talked about how your parents used a hybrid structure, which included both.

Saadia Khan 10:39

So talk to me a little bit about your relationship? And what do you mean by these terms, especially in the context of parenting?

Raha Francis 10:47

My parents and I, we have a beautiful relationship, I think I feel heard by them in a very deep way. And that's shaped the confidence which I've been able to go out into the world and forge relationships. So to your question about fear based versus other kinds of mindsets. My parents were very much immigrant parents, we moved here from the Middle East, and my parents are South Asian immigrants.

Raha Francis 11:12

And there were a lot of shoulds, that they would put on me that I think many immigrant children can relate to. Raha, you should get the good grades, you should appear a certain way or show respect in a certain way. And sometimes, like I would actively disagree with this. And for a long time, I also internalized this.

Raha Francis 11:33

So it was a mix growing up of thinking, okay, these are the rules for how to live a stable life, I should follow them. But also there was this threat of Raha trying to explore what I wanted and and trying to figure out what I wanted. And so I say these are fear based mindsets. And that like, it seemed like these were very common things to say that I would hear immigrant parents say, and I realized that came from very common fears or desires with my parents.

Raha Francis 11:59

So you know, the idea of them preferring that I pursued one of three career pathways, because in their eyes, that was the way that I could find security, something they really crave for me and something they really had to negotiate by, like leaving countries and coming here. So there was always that, but I think the thing that sticks with me the most is this feeling of always being heard. And that is a very love based mindset. You know, and sometimes this would show in things that they would do say we were to have a conflict, and I were to disagree, even if they had very strong views, I think I would always walk out of that with some kind of understanding that they were trying to pay attention to where I was coming from.

Raha Francis 12:42

And it's sometimes showed and in the words we actually exchanged and how we would negotiate things. And sometimes it would show in the way they like kind of paid individualized attention, you know, and so they had all these shoulds. But when they saw certain things about us certain unique things about us, they leaned into that, for example, my passion for dance or just certain personality traits I had and the way I was different from my brother. And I also saw them do this in our community. My parents were kind of community leaders for youth in our town, they put together a little music band, and they were kind of confidants for a lot of folks in our community.

Raha Francis 13:16

So I had this interesting position of being like you feel like a confidant and someone who I really feel heard and seen by but I'm also kind of grappling with all these very strong feelings you had on what it means for me to succeed and feel secure.

Saadia Khan 13:29

It's interesting, you say that, and I want to go back to fear based because there's so much to deconstruct.

Saadia Khan 13:37

Now, when I think of fear based, right, the first thought that comes to my mind is managing expectations through power and control. And I don't think our parents were doing that right, as you said, they were just negotiating things, and they wanted the best for you. And that in their minds manifested in job security, which as an immigrant parent, I can totally relate to, because a lot of times when we are proposing certain professions or career paths to our kids, the reason behind that is we recognize that as non-white kids of immigrants, they will have to work 10, 20 times harder to achieve what their white counterparts will achieve or achieving. And hence we want them to have that steady, stable career path.

Saadia Khan 14:26

But there's something else that I wanted to talk to you about. Whatever advice at least immigrant parents myself included we give in terms of career is very much oriented around job right. But a lot of times kids of immigrants take it as an all encompassing verdict on where their life will go.

Saadia Khan 14:49

I know that job is just one part of your identity, right so you could pursue a secure career and then pursue your passion. So outside of that job like you do Bollywood dance classes, that is your passion.

Saadia Khan 15:06

Do you think it has also something to do with how Western societies especially the US and Canada frame job as an integral part of our identities? And that's why when parents suggest certain career paths, people take it very personally, because they see self-actualization or manifestation of that through their work.

Raha Francis 15:31

I think there's a very beautiful concept underlying your questions, Saadia. Which is that behind these shoulds, that a parent gives whether Western or on the eastern side, there are other kinds of shoulds that are more individualistic. What's below this is a set of values, man, a set of experiences, and sometimes a set of fears that are particular to our parents, the lives they had the cultures, they had their personalities even. And so it's a very beautiful way to look at things, right? In terms of values, I think there is a lot of that. And I saw it in many ways, like sometimes in these deep fears around around you need to set yourself up. And I know that this came from my parents not having that stability or having to negotiate it.

Raha Francis 16:12

And I do strongly think that there are kind of race elements around that for sure. And I do also think that it comes from certain values from an Eastern perspective, from a cultural perspective around what security means around what identity means.

Raha Francis 16:25

An interesting way that I see that is I remember, years ago when I was a lawyer, and I had gone to Harvard Law, and I had gotten my job. And my parents were super happy about that. I remember telling my mom, like, I don't know if maybe I'm depressed. And I remember my mom being a bit confused. And she's like, how could you be depressed? You have people you love. You know, you have the security. And I think that really speaks to what you were saying around identity. Actually, maybe in some ways, it's opposite. It's saying, hey, if you've got that security, then what else do you really need? But I think there are many things underlying that to around emotions, like what do we consider life satisfaction, right. And I think a lot of that is also cultural and generational. But you know, on the one hand, I do think that what I've seen in my, in my family, and the kind of cultural values that they carry, there is this idea of, okay, you don't need to find everything in your job. And I think part of that's generational, it's also from their experiences, like my dad escaped the civil war through his career, you know, he was able to bring his family out of poverty. And I asked him, Do you love what you do, you know, working with numbers and finance, and he's like, I love it. And I'm like, that's great. But I also realized that he didn't have the privilege to just sit around and be like, "what aspect of this do I like?"

Raha Francis 17:43

He was great with numbers, he ran with it. And he got security through that. And I think that's a lot of how they've shaped me to think about careers. And in that lens, I think part of it is an Eastern lens. Part of it also is just the lens of privilege that I in my generation have versus my parents. And the way I think about this is also you know, even though my parents have different perspectives on what a meaningful job should be in a meaningful life shouldn't be, I feel like unconsciously part of them brought us to this new country and gave us all these privileges so that we wouldn't have to run into the experiences that they did. And so even though they might like dispute our definitions of what life satisfaction are.

Raha Francis 18:22

I do think that it's because of all their efforts that we even have the privilege to negotiate a different definition.

Saadia Khan 18:29

So I'll tell you something interesting. I interviewed this incredible author, his name is Simone Stolzoff. We released his episode a couple of days ago, and he's written this book called The Good Enough Job, and I was having this conversation with him. He contends that we should look for pleasure, hobbies, and passion outside our jobs, because in a capitalist society, the reason why people are wired or conditioned to see their jobs as their calling, or an end in itself, is because we want people to work harder, and work more than the shirt. And before in doing him, I consider what I do as my passion and calling but I started questioning all of that. And I was like, Is this a tactical thing that capitalism has instilled in us to see our job as our passion so that we can pursue it without questioning how much time we spend on our job and with our job at the expense of social experiences and other passions that we could pursue? Totally. And I see this a lot with younger folks, they want that passion and self actualization from their jobs. And I wonder if we need to flip the script there and for some, yes, their job will be their passion and it will perfectly align. But for others, it could be a means to an end, right? You can be financially stable and then go pursue your passions and do mountaineering, whatever you want to do, right? Yes. So that's where I'm coming from more so than being an immigrant parent.

Raha Francis 20:16

I guess. I totally agree with that. First of all, I think any chance to question the power of capitalism, and how it influences our data? Yes, let's do it. To your point, there's something here that I love, which is the danger of equating our identity to our job, right? I think that's where the idea of hustle culture comes from. And I think, you know, we can have the freedom to ask what part of my job makes me come alive, and is at least x percent of this aligned with something I enjoy, because at the end of the day, most people working full time jobs are spending a lot of time at work, right. So there's that. But then there's the question of like, Does my job need to be everything?

Saadia Khan 21:00

Right?

Raha Francis 21:01

You know, and I think that often reflects an inability to define our identity outside of our productivity. And I think that's really dangerous, because it's saying that our worth comes from what we do, rather than just who we are. And that totally resonates with me. And I honestly, it's like, I don't know about you, or how you're feeling after that podcast, trying to figure out that balance. Like I'm still figuring it out. What is that balance between having a career that we can lean into that brings us meaning and doesn't drain us while also learning not to negotiate our worth through what our productivity? It's an ongoing thing for me. But I think what's important about what you said, is being aware of how capitalism and you know, all these other forces can play into that. So, in short, I agree.

Saadia Khan 21:49

You're right, it got me thinking about so many things that I do. The interesting thing was having interviewed so many second gen kids, I see this passion for pushing back against capitalism. It's, capitalism is bad, it's wrong. But then they don't realize how they are internalizing capitalism through their work, and how they're looking for passion through work and not outside work. Right.

Raha Francis 22:18

Yeah.

Saadia Khan 22:19

So that was just such an interesting eye opening conversation. But I want to pivot a little. And I want to talk about emotional identities that we have. Sometimes I think we talk about so many different parts of our physical identities, or our cultural ethnic identities, we forget that having grown up in different cultures, collectivist versus individualistic, we have these emotional identities. And you mentioned it in the beginning, but we didn't have a chance to delve into it. You talked about respect, disrespect, and how you view that and how that relationship has evolved for you with your parents. And I want to expand that conversation a bit.

Saadia Khan 22:59

As a second gen kid, how do you see that relationship, that part of your identity evolved? And have you ever faced or felt that you run into a brick wall with your parents, when it comes to expectations around respect disrespect?

Raha Francis 23:17

I would say like the act of running into walls constantly. When you talk about personality versus culture, I'm someone who's like, let's talk about this. Whereas even personality wise, like my brother's a little different, we were raised by the same family. He's someone who maintains the harmony, right? So I've constantly run into walls. But I think the beauty of this and I think my brother and I both agree on this is that I don't think we've ever felt that there was an insurmountable wall.

Raha Francis 23:44

And when there has been, I think that's taken time and maturity for me to engage with. And so just to speak to that, to that idea of respect, I think growing up, I can see myself being like pretty bratty kid and I look back and I'm sometimes like some things I understand, like, your university example, you know, okay, you really wanted your freedom, that's fine.

Raha Francis 24:06

Other things, I think I was like, I don't know, I was hormonal at times, just like trying to, you know, way, just say this is who I am for the sake of saying it and establishing some kind of boundary. And I think at times that would actively conflict with my parents, perhaps because of differing values right around what they saw success, for example, and freedom versus me. But I think it also had a lot to do with like, the nature of the parent child relationship, you know, as much as we want to be in harmony and understand each other and kind of like, seem like they listened to me, but at times, they had to be authoritative because it's kind of like, Alright, there's certain things I need you to be able to do in order to feel that you're safe going out into the world and sometimes, you know, I can't spend all this time just like listening to you. We just got to enforce certain things right? And now I look back and I Yeah, I realized that that is sometimes part of the parent child relationship.

Raha Francis 25:04

And also looking back, I can see how I felt safe in certain ways in the cocoon of our home, to act out and know that I would be unconditionally loved in ways that I wouldn't do otherwise. So yeah, now that I look back, I can see some of those walls we ran into as kind of just results of perhaps like a healthy parent child relationship, but the fact that they weren't insurmountable to me, reflected, I think, maybe a feeling of safety. But once I have a child who can speak to me, like remotely anything like my personality, it's like, okay, we're gonna have to navigate a lot.

Saadia Khan 25:38

So what have you discovered so far?

Raha Francis 25:41

Honestly, part of it was me negotiating with my parents in a way like saying, okay, you believe that freedom means this, or you believe that living a good life means this, but what if it means something different to me?

Raha Francis 25:54

And I think part of that was me trying to make sense of the world. And I think also part of it was me kind of navigating, pushing back for the sake of pushing back.

Raha Francis 26:04

And I do this in a way my brother who was a bit more of a peacemaker, and someone who just kind of understood the big picture a bit more wouldn't do and I like I can kind of appreciate where that came from, for me, which was a desire to really understand where someone was coming from in a slightly different way than someone like my brother would.

Raha Francis 26:22

And going back to your thoughts on personality differences and emotional understanding. It was kind of like a personality trait of mine to want to kind of negotiate and navigate those boundaries very explicitly. At the time I you know, I might have felt that it was like life or death. And now I'm realizing as I've matured the importance of like learning to pick those battles, but I also look back and I realized I had the lovely privilege of being in a bubble where I could do that and know that I felt love. [Music]

Saadia Khan 27:00

Raha, you also express emotions through your blog? Raha’s Thingses, is that right?

Raha Francis 27:10

You got it.

Saadia Khan 27:11

I had to make sure that I am saying it correctly. And I had to ask one of our script writers who worked with me on your script Michaela. I was like, am I saying it right?

Saadia Khan 27:24

You've explored a lot of emotions, you give step by step advice. Tell me how did that come about? Was it a journey of self exploration discovery that manifested in that or was it something else,

Raha Francis 27:37

I tend to be someone who likes to think very logically, like step by step through things, as much as I think that I'm a very logical person, I think what underlies that are my feelings and my desires about how I want to connect with the world, I want to understand the world. And that's where my logic comes in. And I want to be able to piece apart complex ideas, but I think most deeply, I want to connect with others and feel seen and help others feel seen.

Raha Francis 28:03

Where the this blog comes from, in one way is from that logical kind of side of me that likes to deconstruct complex things, but fundamentally from like, a desire to understand others and understand myself. And that's very tied to, you know, everything we've been talking about, about parents and different cultures, because I think underneath that is a desire to, like, connect with the world and see, you know, underneath all our actions and our interpretations, what does all of this tell us about our values, our fears, our experiences, and I think that's perhaps the most beautiful kind of privilege of the human experience.

Saadia Khan 28:43

So let's talk about feelings and emotions again. What emotions have you unpacked through that process? And what are some of the emotions that are more difficult for you to navigate?

Raha Francis 28:56

I think I read this quote somewhere, was it like Suleika Jaouad, who was quoting someone else, but they said, you know, if you want to be a good writer, talk to the world about emotions, difficult emotions that you had to navigate. And if you want to be a great writer, talk to the world about the emotions that you yourself, don't even want to talk about.

Raha Francis 29:15

So for me, the blog came out of me processing my own emotions around self love. And yes, I talk about constantly negotiating and trying to figure out where I stood in the world. But as I've grown, I've kind of seen how tough I've been on myself in certain ways, and how that actually limited my understanding sometimes of what was possible, or how some of my own kind of rigidity or harshness comes from being harsh on myself and so my own journeys in life have been learning to look at myself like a little baby.

Raha Francis 29:56

So it's interesting the way we talk about parenting because So much of my journey has also been learning to parent myself learning to listen to myself and resonate with myself through those tough moments. And I think everyone has them like I think we have certain reactions to the world certain fears, they're inevitable we create certain narratives around them. to directly answer your question, I think a lot of it had to do around vulnerability, you know, everyone has their own fears and their coping mechanisms.

Raha Francis 30:22

And I think for me, it's what I've had to grapple with is leaning into the beauty of vulnerability, something that I was able to experience so healthfully with my family, learning to navigate that in a world where like, unconditional love might not be guaranteed, that sounds like a really abstract concept, but it's something that I had to constantly run into, on my own. Maybe I'm answering these in a really abstract way. But I think this kind of self kindness that I preached so much is something I had to learn to give myself.

Saadia Khan 30:51

Give me an example of self love for you now versus previously, how does your self love manifest? In what ways does it show up for you?

Raha Francis 31:04

I've always considered myself a very positive person. And I was always like, yeah, I like tend to see the great side of things. And part of myself, as I matured, has been learning to accept the parts of me that feel things like shame, or feel fear. So that's shown up in, you know, in many aspects of my life, for example, in relationships, I've always been comfortable expressing who I am and navigating that, but I think there's a deep sense of fear sometimes that I've brought into relationships, romantic relationships, particularly because such intimate relationships can sometimes trigger these feelings of are you going to be there for me? And or do you see me as I am?

Raha Francis 31:49

And for a long time, I would advocate for I want to see you this way, I want you to show up for me this way. And like, I think it's not until recently until really learning to be truly kind of vulnerable in relationships, that I've been able to realize how much of a shield I have in terms of like thinking about, are you going to hurt me? Or are you going to make me feel a certain way and learning to just trust the person.

Raha Francis 32:10

And so an example of this, I went to a dance class with my partner, I remember kind of just relaxing with him and having a lovely time together and realizing how like both of our kind of approaches to music and to the rhythm kind of emerge. And when you're trying to like, how are you doing this versus how am I doing this? You can you can almost tense up. But there was just something so beautiful about looking at his face and seeing how happy we were together that allowed us to have fun. And one thing I realized that the instructor pointed this out to me, in salsa, there's tends to be a leader and a follower. And this tends to have like gendered roles around it, but it doesn't have to. But in this case, as I was following, he said, well, you know, you can be a beat late, right? And I was like, What do you mean? And he's like, oh, you know what, like, when your partner if your partner is leading is doing the moves, you can just like wait and see how it show up and start a beat late.

Raha Francis 33:03

And for me, this blew my mind. I was like, What do you mean? You mean, like, I don't have to be on guard to like, predict how they're going to. He's like, no, like, that's the whole point. And I'm like, I just walked out of that class. And I was like, I've just been doing life. Because it helped me realize that like, just generally how much effort I put on myself to kind of be on the lookout for whether I'm going to be maybe treated a certain way, or whether you know how, like how folks are showing up and how I need to show up. And it was just a beautiful lesson to learn that you can just like allow yourself to embrace the situation, especially with really intimate and vulnerable relationships, right. And so for me, in short, the lesson I've learned is, you know, once you do have that permission outside of like family relationships, learning to kind of lean back and let the beauty of the world and relationships just come to you and react to that.

Saadia Khan 33:57

You know Raha you bring up such an important point. Because a lot of times when we think of self love, we think of something that we have to achieve for ourselves by ourselves. Right? There is this guarded notion of how do I make myself happy? How do I make myself content. It's a very individualistic approach specially in Western societies. But sometimes self love, as you said, can manifest or can show up as we expand our horizons. And as we let our guard down and see how we can make others happy in those social interactions, the idea of self love, how do I make myself happy? How do I value myself again, dumb in so many different forms and shapes, and it just doesn't have to be that guarded approach to being focused on ourselves only. Right?

Raha Francis 34:54

You know, we talked about a podcast before a meeting. I think it's like the Live Stronger podcast where they were talking about different cultural values and how that manifests in emotions.

Raha Francis 35:06

And an example that stood out to me was there was basically this experiment where folks were given a bunch of faces to look at, and they're in the middle of was, I guess, the face and question and they asked that person, how are they feeling right now, in more Western cultures, folks would just focus on that one face, oh, do they seem happy? Do they seem not, whereas in more Eastern cultures, I think they would look at the folks faces around them to determine how that person is feeling.

Raha Francis 35:32

You know, we talked about collectivist versus individualist values. And that was such a fundamental example about how emotion and things like love and like just what we're feeling can be shaped by those around us. A thought I have is, you know, what you're talking about Saadia I feel is like, so central to everything we've been talking about, even with parenting or different values, because for me, I think self love is beautiful in that, like, it gives us a way to understand the world in a better way. And I think that self love for me is a way of chipping at our fears at some of the muscles and reflexes we have in order to understand ourselves, but also understand what people are really talking about when they interact with us and where they're coming from. So for me, truth, self love is at its core, very interdependent. I think that ability to be so beautifully interdependent with us understand where they're coming from, develop values that align with others, build together with others, I think can only come when we are addressing what kind of muscles can prevent us from being kind to ourselves and understanding ourselves and others.

Saadia Khan 36:42

Absolutely.

Saadia Khan 36:43

And it doesn't mean that achieving self love through a broader connection with others is somehow discounting our emotional identities, right? It's in fact, elevating our emotional identities through those interactions, and recognizing what makes us happy. Because coming from a collectivist culture, I feel for me, self love is so much more than focusing on myself. And I've been going back and forth on this, because when I came to the US, it was all about looking at self love or contentment through how I make others feel or how I interact with family members, friends, broader community. And then I started moving more towards self love is just me, my emotional needs, my physical needs, my happiness, my anger, my sadness.

Saadia Khan 37:39

And now I feel I am somewhere where I recognize the beauty in both instead of in one, right, so I have internalized that hybrid structure. And isn't it beautiful Raha that people like me or you as an immigrant, I can speak for myself and your kid of immigrants. So you have navigated those words that we can draw on all these experiences from different cultures and identities and internalize the best of both, right? Because a lot of times just being individualistic or collectivist, can have its downside, and can be harmful. But we have this privilege to draw on both, which is so wonderful.

Raha Francis 38:26

And I see it as like this wonderful opportunity to practice a really deep skill, which is, you know, learning to see where people are coming from with their actions, right. And I think with you, it's in a slightly different way, because from what I understand you immigrated to North America at a later age. For me, I feel like I constantly grown up with this, like conflict.

Raha Francis 39:55

Right.

Raha Francis 38:49

And now that I look back at it, I think when done in a healthy way, and when when you feel that you have the safety, that certain views aren't being thrust onto you, you know, respect for the sake of respect without trying to understand what you're trying to build together, or rebellion for the sake of rebellion. You know, I think there's a really beautiful way to look at these moments of difference or dissonance. And it's a beautiful opportunity to ask if this doesn't immediately make sense to me, how can I take a step back to understand what this tells me about this person's values, their experiences, and maybe even their fears? And looking back I think it's been a great privilege and honestly, decades later, I'm also only starting to revisit like my own relationships with my parents with a new lens. For example, I'm like, I made my childhood room actually because my partner and I are visiting my family as part of a coast to coast in advance of my podcast I actually had this beautiful opportunity I thought you know, let me just sit down with my mom and dad and ask them like what did respect look for you growing up because I've never really asked them that like I took it for granted.

Saadia Khan 39:56

So what did they see? Oh side it

Raha Francis 39:57

was so interesting to your point about emotional identities, my parents both had a slightly more Eastern understanding of respect and stuff. But the thing is, they also have very different personalities that didn't actually go by gendered roles or like, you know, assumptions around gendered roles in both Eastern and Western cultures.

Raha Francis 40:16

My father was a bit more of a peacemaker, and my mother was an advocate or actually very similar to me. And my parents were talking about, like situations when they were like 10 years old last night, and my mother was like, you know, I look back on it. And I would argue with my mother and my mother and father about the littlest things, and sometimes I wonder, like, what did that actually achieve, but now we can see it as a way of her kind of just showing who she was. And for me, that was so interesting, because I could see both of those aspects of their personality, in addition to those cultural values and how they raised me. And it's just really beautiful to see.

Saadia Khan 40:54

Raha I could have another episode with you on this particular topic. And I am grappling with it as we speak, because like your mother, I used to argue with my parents a lot growing up. However, there was always this threshold of respect that I could never cross because of obviously, the environment that we were growing up in there was this expectation of how you talk to your elders or your parents. But I see that with my kids, that threshold is crossed numerous times, right? Oh, yeah. And that's what's so fascinating for me. And I see that kids in the US or I don't know what the situation is in Canada, but they sometimes push back on those boundaries, which is difficult for Eastern or South Asian parents to reconcile with. But that's an interesting parent child dynamic that I experienced, which I'm learning from, and it requires a lot more patience, I guess.

Saadia Khan 41:56

Raha, in the end, if you were to define America, in the context of what you and I have talked about, how do you see it?

Raha Francis 42:05

You know, I think that everything we talked about Saadia, particularly that idea of self love, and through it, trying to understand the values, experiences and fears of others behind what they're saying, I think that that concept and skill is really what can help us lean into the beauty of America.

Saadia Khan 42:27

Right?

Raha Francis 42:28

I think what America is, is a land full of opportunities, like the ones we've had as immigrants to understand differing sets of values to reconcile them to, you know, hear things and then ask the question of, okay, what are the perspectives underlying this statements?

Saadia Khan 42:46

Right.

Raha Francis 42:47

And taking that out of the parent child context, it's just such a beautiful skill to be able to, to try and understand what's the context underlying people statements, and I think it's something that can really let us lean into the beauty of America is diversity. And I think it's exactly the tool that we need to advocate for the America or the Canada that can be because it's through that, that we can really cut to the core of what we're actually talking about in America, when we talk about things like self actualization, or security, you know, or what it needs to find meaning like, what are the power dynamics at play? What are the assumptions we're making about what groups and privileges can get certain folks closer to security than others? What are the assumptions that we have when defining our self worth in a way that's tied to hustle culture and productivity?

Raha Francis 43:41

Right? So I truly think that this nuanced approach to understanding the experiences of others behind the terms that they use can really help us understand the power dynamics at play in our shared languages. And it can really help us advocate for those who who don't stand to be benefited by these power dynamics. So I really, really do think that everything we talked about Saadia can be so beautiful, you know, and if we're able to nurture through parent child relationships, the strength of resonance and trying to not just agree with others, but understand where they're coming from, we can really advocate for a beautiful world and a beautiful life

Saadia Khan 44:21

Right. Raha, where can people find your blog?

Raha Francis 44:24

Super easy. raha.substack.com, R-A-H-A. or just Google Raha's Thingses.

Saadia Khan 44:32

Thank you. Raha. this was so good. Thank you so much for coming on. Immigrantly

Raha Francis 44:35

Grateful for your time, Saadia. Such a lovely chat.

Saadia Khan 44:40

Now, after the conversation ended, Raha and I spoke for another half an hour which was incredible. And I said something to her that I want to share with all of you or listeners as well. A lot of times I feel as an immigrant parent, that immigrant parents are misunderstood in terms of have their feedback advice, what they believe in how strongly they believe in certain values. And I wonder if we could tweak that narrative a bit and try to understand the why behind their shirts, their advice, their feedback and even critique.

Saadia Khan 45:18

It's a good place to start to have those conversations in a loving, nurturing environment. I hope you liked our conversation. If you have thoughts on it, if you have other conversation ideas that you want to share with us, please do. Don't forget to follow us on our socials on Instagram at Immigrantly pod Twitter at Immigrantly underscore pod and we are also on Tik Tok at Immigrantly podcast.

Saadia Khan 45:46

This episode was produced by me written by Michaela Strauther and me. The editorial review was done by Shei Yu and our amazing editor is Haziq Ahmed Farid I. The theme music for this episode is done by Simon Hutchinson by the way, I love love, love our new theme music if you have any feedback, I'd love to hear your thoughts. Come back next week when I have another incredible conversation to share. Take care.