Ep-239 Real Talk: A Candid Conversation on Sexuality and Identity
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Saadia Khan
Hello, and welcome to Immigrantly a safe space for unadulterated conversations about diverse communities. I am Saadia Khan. I am so excited to welcome all of you, our listeners new and old, to this space where we share honest conversations about a variety of issues.
And today I will share something that makes me extremely uncomfortable, like really uneasy, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people can relate to this. So last year, I sat down with Laura Williams for the Imperfectly Phenomenal Woman podcast. And you know what, as soon as I sat down, my inner voice was mired in pre-emptive regret. What I was thinking of agreeing to talk about my sexual journey on a public forum, but I took a few deep breaths, sipped a glass of water, and decided to block my reservations and delve into much-needed catharsis.
Now this podcast offers a safe space for women to reframe limiting beliefs and be unapologetically themselves. And I did just that. For the first time I unveiled the most intimate, almost unreclaimed part of my sexual journey. I was surprised by how easy it felt to publicly share my story, even though I had met Williams only five minutes earlier. In the interview, I said things I didn't realize were part of my consciousness. It was a long overdue, look inward at the shame and confusion I have come to associate with sex, sexuality, and sexual empowerment.
You know, as a young Muslim girl growing up in Pakistan, my understanding of sex was non-existent. Sure, I had some fleeting conversations with my friends and cousins, and we probably exchanged a few awkward giggles, but there was no formal sex education curriculum in the country. Family elders passed down relationship advice and anecdotes, emphasizing the societal notion that the close family should be the bearers of such intimate knowledge. While there is wisdom in this cultural practice, it really prevented me from understanding sex because, quote, unquote, good girls didn't concern themselves with the subject and I really wanted to be that good girl. It took me a while to feel comfortable around conversations about sexual empowerment. And guess what?
The podcast interview that I mentioned in the beginning, although I shared so many intimate details on it, I never posted that interview on my social media because I still feel I will be judged.
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But today's guest is unapologetic in sharing her sexual journey. Today I am speaking with Sadia Azmat. Sadia is a British Indian writer and comedian who started with stand up several years ago, she co hosted a podcast for BBC called No Country for Young Women. Recently, she published a book called Sex Bomb, which explores sexuality and her identity as a Muslim woman and I am so excited to have Sadia on Immigrantly.
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Wow, Sadia, I'm so excited to have you here and it is going to be funny because my name is Saadia and your name is Sadia.
Sadia Azmat
We don’t know if we're talking to ourselves or to the other person.
Saadia Khan
Oh my gosh, but you know what, you spell it with one A and I spell it with two A's.
Sadia Azmat
Is that by birth because a lot of people have the temptation to call us Sardia like within our even though there's no R. So is that just how your parents named you?
Saadia Khan
Or I think that's how my father named it. He's very particular about spellings and his English. He's really proud of his English so maybe that's why. I don't know.
Sadia Azmat
Your English is beautiful as well. I was gonna ask you what's the meaning of your name? And I know that sounds stupid but I will not ask you before I tell you what I think the meaning is.
Saadia Khan
I really don't know.
Sadia Azmat
Oh my god. That's such an Asian thing. Like we really like to always ask meaning of names anyway, maybe it's not an Asian thing, but I believe Sadia means good luck.
Saadia Khan
Oh, really?
Sadia Azmat
I'm not sure that's correct. Based on life events.
Saadia Khan
I need plenty of good luck. I really do. At least for the next week. I am so excited. And I'm so glad we are in this space. Sadia, I have consumed so many podcast interviews of yours. And you have a fascinating personality. And I have a lot of questions. But we'll start with how do you introduce yourself outside being a comedian and a writer?
Sadia Azmat
She is sexually frustrated. You know what, I think that to be honest with you Sadia. I'm not gonna laugh every time I say your name. But I think it's hard because yeah, it's about balance. And sometimes you don't want to be defined with the sum of your parts and these labels. And other times, it's just people want it. And so I don't know, it's probably the same for you is like your podcast is called Immigrantly podcast, and I love it. But then sometimes I think, you know, I could be wrong. But you may not always want to be talking about things from that lens. But sometimes people can't see beyond that lens.
Saadia Khan
You’re right. But I also think that immigrant identity is a big umbrella of human existence. As you said, it's part of my identity. It's not fully who I am. And Immigrantly is a manifestation of that claim that I am not fully just that. And there is so much more to us. Right? So when we talk about these conversations, we talk about food and faith, sexuality, love and relationships.
Sadia Azmat
Yes, yes. Yes. Are you married?
Saadia Khan
I am. Oh my gosh, I have two girls who are teenagers.
Sadia Azmat
Oh my god, you're so beautiful. I can't believe you have kids. But they're say they're probably really beautiful like you.
Saadia Khan
Oh my gosh, you're too kind. But my kids are off to college.
Sadia Azmat
Oh my gosh, are they like a child geniuses? Are they like four years old?
Saadia Khan
They are not. They are part of Gen Z. And I will be an empty nester soon. And I know I've talked about this on so many recent episodes, but it's making me so emotional. And I feel like I'm losing part of me. My babies are all grown up, which is such an interesting, incredible, at times, emotional feeling to have when you see your kids go, especially as a South Asian Mom, I want them to stay with me forever.
Sadia Azmat
That's a beautiful point. And I don't think that we have enough of these conversations. And anybody who's listening who's not Asian, I just need you to understand the love that Desi parents. It's just a very special bond. And I notice the same probably for most mums, but I only know the Asian version of this phenomenon. And in a way, it's funny, isn't it? Because there will always be your babies, but you're gonna have to find something that fills a little bit of that celebration that you have for them, right, in a way. And I think it's really difficult. It might and you could tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I think that Asian moms especially are so selfless. All they want to do is love their kids and look after their kids. And I don't know, if they're able to prioritize themselves for those 18 years or more beyond we know that is like older people that live with their parents is going to be a bit of an adjustment for you as you already know.
Saadia Khan
Yeah, absolutely. But Sadia, you know what, when I had them, I wasn't ready to have kids. And when I look back, I feel like this is a good time for me to connect with my 20 something year old selves. Yeah, what I can do. And I've always looked at motherhood, again as part of my identity, but not wholly who I am being a South Asian Mom, mom, you right? I focus a lot on my kids, and I do anything for them. But I also see myself as a woman as a sexual being, as you would say. Yes, as a social entrepreneur, as an activist. There's so many things that I think about when I think about myself and I hope that there is some kind of manifestation more of it now. ourselves when my kids were home, but I want to go back to what you said, you have talked a lot about your sexuality. And I'm so glad Muslim women are finally talking about this outside the confines of their homes. Because contrary to what people may believe, Muslim women are sexual beings, and they talk about sex, but within the confines of their homes, I remember I did this whole season on love and relationships, where I literally talked to so many people about so many different facets of that, how do you define sexual empowerment? As a Muslim woman? As somebody who's unapologetically talking about it? What does it mean to you?
Sadia Azmat
It's such a great question. I don't feel like I represent every Muslim or even every woman or every Asian. And so I think sometimes people put that on us, though, because they don't know many diverse people. So when you're that one point of reference, you don't want to be representing but there's a kind of assumption that you are representing. It’s difficult for me, because I feel like I don't fit in, like Muslim women don't kind of claim me necessarily as somebody that they approve of necessarily, but some do. So there's obviously this mixed reactions, mixed responses.
And I think it's hard as a Muslim woman, because nobody really wants to listen to us and accept what we're telling them. Because before they've even met any Muslim woman, they've been told we are oppressed, they've been told we have forced marriages, they're told we are all sorts of things. And so by the time they come across someone like me who's quite comfortable in my own skin, quite maybe just average, basically, regular, is maybe they think that like, something's weird, because that's not what they've been taught. So I don't know if that makes them think I'm unique or outsider, which I guess as a comedian. I guess we kind of are outsiders anyway, they usually are very curious as to what Muslims think, or what my family thinks. So it still feels very much like I'm not able to represent myself as my own person. That's a lot of the times people are like, what are your family think? What are these people think? Oh, and it's always about what other people think, I think, is a real reluctance to just take somebody at face value, whether they're Muslim or hijabi. Or not, like, I have to put all of that before I can even answer your question, which is that, you know, I love sex. never really felt ashamed of it as sometimes there's an assumption that maybe women like me do, I don't feel like I've been very lucky in love, like, you know, I talk about that relationship. And my book, my memoir, Sex Bomb, you know, and I've learned a lot of hard lessons. So I'm single at the moment, guys, if you want to find me on Tinder, but I guess to answer your question is that I'm just trying to be me. And I think sometimes people don't understand, like, you know, they wonder if you're joking, because you're a comedian, or they wonder if, you know, what's the real story? Like, yeah, I'm just a person who is like anybody else? Like, we all like sex? I think it's funny because I say it because it's element of surprise, because you don't expect it from a Muslim woman. And yeah, it's like, I'm not getting any as well. Saadia. Yeah, just so you know.
Saadia Khan
You've talked about comedy. That's something that you talk extensively about. And I was listening to one of your podcast episodes, I think it was last episode of your BBC podcast called No Country For Young Women. And I think you were talking about comedy. And you said,
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I don't know if I do it to mess around or to appease other people. And I think by other people at the time, you meant white people, or people who don't share the same identity as you. And it really got me thinking, how do you use comedy? Is it a source of self expression, protection or something else?
Sadia Azmat
Great question. And it's such a amazing art form. It could be all of the above. And I think the honest answer is it does change. I guess it's like you go through different phases or stages. I've learned a lot from American comedians, like Norm McDonald, and for me, I think he's just trying to be funny. And that's where I am now. I think before I did used to find laughter is a great self defense. It diffuses a situation that can be very angry or tense, but you make a funny comment. And everybody's like, you give me an example.
Like, let's say about ISIS, you know, I can't say about America, but everybody in the UK was really uptight around Muslims. And so I had a joke. I said, you know, ISIS won't accept my application, that type of thing. You know, I mean, I'm like so unlucky, I can't even get into ISIS. Everybody's going to join them. They didn't even invite me. And so where I think you're able to kind of relaxed the room and our people. It's not to say all of people's anxieties or stress about that very real situation go away. But for that small period of time, people will be More like, it's not going to be the end of the world or you know, oh, she's funny or, you know, we can we can laugh at this because especially now, the times we're living in, it feels like, there's so much seriousness, and it doesn't feel like there's enough outlet. Even comedy is being policed. And it's so sad to see because it is just comedy and some people are seeing and things that aren't there. They're just making things up and attaching it to comedy, because they don't even understand it. And so, I think there's a lot of independent thought and freedom of speech that kind of ties into it. I'm a student of comedy, right? I've been doing it for a long time, it kind of makes you feel a bit freer in sometimes situations, like, you know, we've just come out of the COVID or whatever, things that you know, where you're a little bit repressed, let's be honest, or where things are really challenging. Comedy can make you feel like, there's hope.
Saadia Khan
What's been the most liberating part of comedy for you?
Sadia Azmat
I think the most liberating part of comedy was letting go. Like, it's taken years. But like, I think there was a point where I was really wanting to impress the audience, and like, you know, please them. And it's the same like real world. Yeah, you know, when you try too hard, it just doesn't work. You know, people smell desperation. People just don't want to be around you. And then it just gives a bad vibe altogether, is so character building, and it builds your communication skills. But I think when I stopped trying so hard, and it definitely took a lot of time. But yeah, I think for me, what was so liberating is accepting that I'm funny. And that regardless of what happened in the gig, or whatever happens in the evening is like accepting that also that they don't have to agree with you. You can say something really stupid, but they can laugh. And then you win, because you're a comedian. But we're not preachers or TED talkers. We're not here to kind of be activists as well. And I think there's so many different narratives were at play. But fundamentally, we're failing if people aren't laughing. So it doesn't matter if you're a, you know, moral, or if you're factually correct or anything, if you can elicit laughter, you've done your job. So I think understanding comedy and relearning it once I went on a longer route, in terms of kind of trying too hard was definitely very liberating
Saadia Khan
Sadia, in the context of comedy, have you ever had a reaction from people that really surprised you, something that you weren't expecting?
Sadia Azmat
Well, when I did do a big event for Asian women in Birmingham a few years ago, it was over 600 women and I was talking about blow jobs, I was talking about everything. And they all laughed. And so I know that that sounds a bit obvious. But for me, as a Muslim woman to be accepted by that many Asian women, it really was a turning point for me, because I think for so long, I didn't understand, you know, what I could and couldn't do. And basically Bill Hicks, who you probably know, he said that you're just trying to be friends with the audience. And so, you know, either they're gonna come along with you or not. And I think there's a thing as well as that a lot of times people who go to watch comedy are white. So, you know, it felt like a lot of time, my fan base, if you like, were white or black, you know, non-Asian. And so it meant a lot to me when they were just able to laugh, because I think for so long, Asians have not been able to laugh at themselves, especially like the material I'm doing is not very common, it's not predictable. You have to try and give it a chance. And so for me, that was definitely, it meant a lot. And it will always stay with me because I'm not, it wasn't clean. Let's put it like that.
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Saadia Khan
So then I want to pivot a little talk about religion. Now, you have openly talked about your relationship with your religion. I am a practicing Muslim. And I believe you too. But as two Muslim women, we probably approach religion very differently as well, right? Yes, that's what people need to understand. Even people within the Muslim community can be so different, and they can have such different relationships with their religion with their identity. I was listening to one of your podcast episodes. Again, I'm a huge podcast listener as well, on top of being a podcaster. You were on Fake The Nation and you said something about religion. Like if you have faith, you have to accept it as is right. And you have to conform to it. There is no picking or choosing and I'm rephrasing it a bit. And I'm curious to know how your religion has informed your choices. And how do you see conformity with religion as part of who you are?
Sadia Azmat
What it is, is, I suppose when we're younger, our relationship with religion is different to when we grow and so I guess like also being born into Islam is a huge privilege, because you don't know what it's like not to have it. So there's certain things that you just accept that you're Muslim, right? Because you're, you already have that faith. But as you know, our faith, which we call iman,, it fluctuates. So there's times where we can be a little looser with it. And there's times where we can be a bit more practicing, if you like, if you want to use that word or phrase, but like, basically, there's times where we're more conscious of our faith than others.
And the way that faith is meant to be is you're not meant to really deviate from it. But living in this world, and even God has acknowledged that we're not going to be sinless, because even he said, if you don't sin, I'll create a new people and replace you with them who do sin, because we can ask for forgiveness.
So I think it's about your choices. And God has given us freewill. And I think is you reconciling that with yourself and your faith in God. And going back to my earlier point about your own relationship with yourself, like sometimes we are self destructive, we don't love ourselves enough. And we will do the wrong things. And we don't even think about our higher consciousness or our higher self. And then sometimes you're more on a healing kind of part of life, you actually want to be a better person, and
you want to try and beam your faith and a good image for your faith is really hard for it to be constant, you know?
Saadia Khan
Sadia, to you as a Muslim woman, the way I see my faith is II, I think Islam is an egalitarian religion. We we don't have clergy, so I don't need to have a middle person to define my relationship with God. And I can choose to live a life that I believe in and have that relationship and not be judged by others, right? So for me, the way I approach it, I prioritize God's humanity over everything else. And I think the unfortunate reality is a lot of times Muslims judge each other. A lot.
Sadia Azmat
You’re very polite. That's a nice way of putting it aside, Saadia.
Saadia Khan
Contrary to what they should be doing, and that's why sometimes we are put in situations where we have to defend our religion, but honestly, I feel like we all pick and choose, as you said, there is some degree of conformity. But beyond that, we are making those choices on a daily basis. And it's okay. It's okay to make those choices.
Sadia Azmat
Sometimes it's subconscious. They don't think about it, or they let's say for example, I know people, Muslim people who drink alcohol, you know, they will eat non-halal food, and they don't think about it, it's about sometimes that issue means more to you than other times. So it's not about your faith. I think it's about your journey and where you are
Saadia Khan
Right and your relationship with faith. It's not just faith in isolation, right? It's your interaction with faith. And you may pick and choose certain things that you hold dearly, and then you may not follow certain tenants that you think are not as important to you. And that's something that I guess, is beautiful about faith, especially Islam, because it doesn't really have that kind of imposition, when it comes to who can dictate what you should follow and it's between you and God. So that's how I approach it.
Sadia Azmat
People can always judge the outside, but they cannot judge the inside, right? So it's easy for people to look at me and say sex mama, you know, ality you know, nobody knows really, do you know what I mean? So you've got to kind of have your own moral compass, I guess.
Saadia Khan
Exactly. Exactly. So I did talk to me about your book. How did it come about? And what was that journey?
Sadia Azmat
I wanted to write a memoir. And I call this export intentionally because it feels like for Muslim woman, sex can be a bit of a bomb. Also, it's got other layers to it, you know, like how sex bomb is, basically, in British slang is meant to mean, you know, a desirable woman. So it's posing a consideration to people that, you know, could a Muslim woman be a sex bomb. And for so long, I think extremism has been tied in with or associated incorrectly with Muslims. But for me, it felt like, you know, sex is a bit of a bomb. And you can't bring it up certain places, or it feels so taboo. So it felt like, this is an area that was really untouched, and still a curiosity to everybody, even though we don't really talk about it's like a hot potato. So I wrote my memoir, which covers so many parts of my life, it covers my journey, finding comedy, and trying to understand relationships, which for me, I guess looking at the book, now, it felt like it was a forbidden space. I didn't really want an arranged marriage. But then I didn't know if I could date or how I could date guys didn't approach me as well, talks about my religion, a little bit my relationship with the hijab or other people's relationship with my hijab.
This conversation about self care is very recent, like, I've not grown up with self care being something that's been taught to me necessarily like as Asian women, I think as women anyway, we're really good at being there for other people. And so I think, looking at the book and the journey, I really wanted to kind of talk about that so that young Asian women who read the book, or anybody else kind of sees the importance of kinda of not forgetting yourself.
Saadia Khan
Sadia, what was the most challenging part of writing the book and sharing those hidden, or as you call them, forbidden parts of your identity and self?
Sadia Azmat
I didn't find it as challenging as I think people would expect, because I'm a Muslim woman. So a lot of people were like, Oh, are you okay? Like, have you had death threats? Or, you know, are the Muslim Oh, wow, angry with you? And I think because I was doing a lot of stand up material about the themes I cover about dick or about family or whatever. So I think stand up, made me confident talking about these things. So I didn't feel so new.
Saadia Khan
Absolutely. Last year, I was on this podcast called Imperfectly Phenomenal Woman, by Laura Williams. And it's a safe space for women to talk about something that they find taboo or something that they can own unapologetically. And I remember Laura sending me an email asking what I want to talk about, and I was like, let's talk about sex and sexual empowerment.
And Sadia, I kid you not I was a jittery mess before the interview began. I was like, Oh, my gosh, how will I talk about this? And then I talked about things that I did not even realize were part of my consciousness. I used words that I had never used. And I felt so comfortable in that space. But once the interview ended, and when it was published, I didn't share it on my social media. And that's the struggle that a lot of Muslim women sometimes feel because they don't want to be judged. And I consider myself an empowered, enlightened Muslim woman. And yet, I was almost scared to share it on my social media, because I thought people in the community will judge me. And then I wrote a whole article about it, and the article hasn't published yet. And I kept thinking, Should I send it to a publisher? And I sent it to my husband? And I was like, What do you think? And he was like, This is great. And that, to me, was a confirmation of what I am seeing as, as somebody in my 40s as a Muslim woman who's been unable to speak about my sexual experiences, or my journey with sexual empowerment. So I'm glad that you're doing what you're doing, because a lot of Muslim women want to talk about this shit. A lot of Muslim women own it, at least internally. They just don't want to talk about it in public because they feel that they will be judged and they will be backlash. And women like you and I need to normalize that. Right.
Sadia Azmat
And can I ask you, and you don't have to answer but do you feel like they're worried about being judged more by other Muslim women or other Muslim men or both?
Saadia Khan
I would say: Muslim women.
Sadia Azmat
And thank you. And that's what has been my experience is that a lot of Muslim women just don't have time for it. And it's funny because I don't want to throw everybody under the bus. Like, there's definitely been gigs where I've done comedy. And Asian women in general, maybe not specifically just Muslim, they come up to me and say, we're really horny, oh, my god, I'm so bad. But then other women are like, you know, really put out by it. And it's just very eye opening and surprising, because I would have thought that it might have been missing men who are a bit more angry, but some of them have been really, like, supportive and like, Oh, that's really cool. Like you said, your husband was very, like, supportive and loving about it, I totally get your response post that podcast because for you, it was like the first time you had a release in that in that audience. And so because it's different to your general persona, and work is like putting your head above the parapet that's kind of where as a comedian, we are constantly being stupid and dickheads I don't know if you guys have that phrase in America, where we're constantly being idiots, you know, or goofballs.
So I've kind of become a bit immune to it, because and also, fundamentally, I really don't care what people think, like, I think that's just been a kind of a strong personality trait that have in that I'm not doing it for other people. So how they respond, even if it's overly positive is doesn't really affect me. In the same way, if it's negative, it says a lot about them. You know, somebody who messages you on social media and takes time out of their day to try and bring you down. It says so much more about their life and their mindset than you because they're not really looking at your whole picture. And I think that's the thing that's frustrating for for the critics, right, is that it isn't black and white. It's straightforward, because you've been a very loyal wife happily married for so long. So basically, you're not a whole, like what people would want to say that I am, even though I don't think I am. But it's a whole rhetoric. And so they want to put you in a box, and we don't fit in the box.
Saadia Khan
They will always put you in a box, right. And that's the irony of it. And you know what, I have been thinking about it a lot more, because I feel it impacts every facet of your life, one's sexuality, your sexual journey. It impacts every facet, whether you're married, not married, whether you have kids, you don't have kids,
Sadia Azmat
Whether you have a vibrator, or don't
Saadia Khan
Whether you have a vibrator or you don't. At the end of the day, these conversations need to happen in a way where there is less fear of judgment. I won't say no fear of judgment, because there's always going to be judgment. And by the way, it's not just Muslim women. It's not just Asian women. It happens to all fam identifying folks. So we are talking about all women everywhere.
Sadia Azmat
I think that's fair. But also I just wanted to add on top of your point is that sometimes not talking about something says a lot. So normalizing the conversation is not just like trying to say that that's all I'm about or that we talk about. But it's just the absence of it is a bit weird, because like you said, it's a big part of people's lives. And there are very few spaces anyway, like sex education sucks in school, we all know that
Saadia Khan
There was no sex education in Pakistan.
Sadia Azmat
Yes. So when we grow up, there should be a platform to be able to kind of have these kind of responsible conversations to an extent that can be a bit of fun as well. But it's helpful because already women are, unfortunately, and that's all women, not just Muslim women kind of feel like we're having to play catch up when it comes to sex in this territory, because it's so acceptable for men to have sex and do whatever they want. So we already have into, I guess, upskill ourselves in a weird way, when we're talking about it, then it's basically like kind of accepting our relationship with it, or at least processing your rights
Saadia Khan
You’re right Sadia. And I think talking about it could start with talking about it to yourself, sometimes women don't even acknowledge their sexual identity to themselves, right? So if you don't want to talk to a friend, if you don't want to talk about it publicly, start talking about it to yourself, What does it mean to you, and then take those baby steps because I feel like there is so much shame around sex in every society and in every community that it's almost impossible to have responsible conversations, because a lot of people try to have these conversations in a more self deprecating way so that they are not judged. But these are serious conversations, right? These are important necessary conversations to have and we can have them without self deprecating or without making fun of it. We can do it that way too. But we can also have it as you and I'm having these conversations. So it's important to all the women out there who listening to this podcast, try to talk yourself about it first, if you haven't already.
Sadia Azmat
100% agree with you in the fact that where if you're not able to talk about it, especially as a woman, what happens is if you are in a relationship, the power dynamics is basically the man right? So it's about his pleasure, or if something doesn't feel right, and you're not able to have a conversation with yourself about it. Where are you going to turn to?
So I think, like you said, going on from having those conversations with yourself.
And also, I guess, having a really open relationship with your partner, because ultimately, what I think is having a great sex life is where you're really able to be open and vulnerable and frivolous with your partner. Right,
Saadia Khan
Right. Absolutely. Sadia, I do want to pivot a little and talk about something else that you said, you talk about sense of belonging, and you call it a right rather than privilege, right? I agree with it. But I want to understand what do you mean by sense of belonging being right? First, how do you define sense of belonging? And why do you think it should be a right rather than privilege?
Sadia Azmat
A sense of belonging means you don't have to explain yourself to anybody. So it's unconditional, you’re human being you're breathing, you're living. So it's not like you're being treated or considered to be an inconvenience, or that this space isn't for you that you have to have like a special past. So sense of belonging, you should feel settled, it's so important to feel settled. Because where people don't feel settled, it can cause a whole plethora of problems for them, make them act in ways that isn't the way they would have chosen to act. So out of desperation, or fear, or panic, all of those things. So I think sense of belonging just feeds into having some sort of stability and safety and settlement. And so I think that so many immigrants, just going back to the name of your podcast, have to compromise the sense of belonging for the sake of what they're migrating to, they have to leave their family or they have to leave the language that they know or the food that they know, and the culture that they know where they do belong and have a sense of belonging, and then it's like they're on borrowed time.
Saadia Khan
So here's how I see it. When I came to the US, I felt like I was an outsider. And I thought we would go back, my husband and I came together for college. And the idea was, we would go back, and then we didn't. And for the longest time, I felt like an outsider. But now I feel like I belong. But at the same time, I don't want to give somebody else the power to define whether I belong or not. I think it's also an internal struggle. Would you agree?
Sadia Azmat
Yes, I think it's psychological. But there's always like an inner and outer kind of perspective. I think if your inner is strong, you can have a better sense of belonging if internally, you're strong. But even if internally, you're strong, if the external is being quite negative towards you, like, you know, I mean, I'm not in America, but like, I heard that there was a lot of anti Islamic sentiment under Trump, for example. So even if your in is strong, if the external is attacking you on one level or another, or people who look like you, because they have a similar characteristic, then I think your sense of belonging is at least being attacked. And so even if it's not winning, which is great, it's kind of a reminder that we as Muslims already kind of have enough faith that we are travelers in this world. So we are able to be more resilient under these attacks and situations because of our faith, which is fantastic. But you know, it still hurts a little bit. I won't deny that. Absolutely. Because, like you're American, I agree with you that you shouldn't have to prove your American nurse or you're Asian this to anybody because you're feeling secure. That's the main thing, but other people do always kind of try to challenge you and try to size you up.
Saadia Khan
You know, I agree. And by the way, Islamophobia has existed in the US long before Trump came. It was normalized after Trump came, but believe you me, Islamophobia has existed here.
Sadia Azmat
So is this still bad or is it okay?
Saadia Khan
That's a great question because I see that a lot of people are moving to the right. And there is a lot of negativity, but then I also see as a response to that a lot of people are owning their identities and they're owning their true self which is so beautiful and incredible to watch. So I think both things are happening at the same time. I just hope that humanity wins over everything else.
Sadia Azmat
But the funny thing is Saadia, is they don't even know. They don't even know the difference between a Muslim and a Sikh.
Saadia Khan
Yeah, you're absolutely right. Sadia in the end, I am going to ask you something that I ask all my guests, but I will tweak it. I've tweaked it for other guests as well. If you were to define the UK, England in a word or a sentence, how would you do that?
Sadia Azmat
Oh, this is a horrible question. Because there's the answer, I want to say.
Saadia Khan
Just say it.
Sadia Azmat
Divided.
Saadia Khan
That's not as negative I was expecting more negativity.
Sadia Azmat
I mean, to be honest, it's more negative than I want. I want to say something positive. But as you know, with podcasting, I think it's an honest account of where you are at that moment. So if we had this conversation in a different point in time, it could be even worse, like you said, or it could be, I'm loved up and so I'm gonna say something really flowery. Who knows?
Saadia Khan
Sadia, where can people find your book?
Sadia Azmat
I'm on Tinder guy, and I'm joking. So my book is already out in America now, which is so exciting. So you can buy it on Amazon, or you can go to your local bookshop, and they can order it for you. I'm going to be in America, New York for two months. If you want me to sign it, I will literally hand deliver it to you. But also, I'm on Instagram. So you can follow me at @sadia_azmat and please subscribe and listen to Immigrantly where you’re gonna get the best hot conversations with lovely sexy Saadia.
Saadia Khan
Thank you, Sadia, this was so wonderful. Thank you. So thank you
this was a fun conversation specially calling somebody by my name Sadia. My namesake. So yeah, I enjoyed it. I will say this. For the longest time I felt like talking about my sexual journey meant that I was indulging in a conversation that somehow wasn't for me, because I saw myself as this intellectual who can only talk about certain topics or should talk about certain serious topics. And I did not bother myself with something that I thought was so taboo, or there was so much shame around it. But I have come to realize that as I accept different parts of who I am, as a woman, as human, this is part of who I am. And I should be able to talk about this in a more respectful way, in a more honest way. But talking about it doesn't mean that I am somehow undermining my identity or compromising on other parts of who I am. If you have any thoughts on this conversation. If you have a You thoughts on any conversation that we have on this platform to reach out to me, I would love to hear your thoughts. And look, if you don't like to write long emails, just send me a voice memo. Sit in a quiet place, record something. Share your thoughts with me. Your feedback is so important. And it really informs me about what I should be exploring in this platform, this incredible platform.
This episode was produced by me, written by Bobak Afshari, and the editorial review is done by Shei Yu. Our editor for this episode is by Paroma Chakravarthy. Our theme music is done by Simon Hutchinson. Until next time, when we have another, maybe uncomfortable, yet extremely important conversation.
Saadia Khan
this was so much fun, although we had to reschedule ones and today it was pouring outside. But anyways, I am so glad I was able to talk to Smriti. She is a wonderful filmmaker, a documentarian, a creator, I'm a big fan of her work, I can't wait to see what else she produces. If you have any thoughts on this, or any other episodes that we've produced, do write to us you can reach out to me at sadiya at Immigrantly pod.com. You can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, take DoD you can visit our website Immigrantly pod.com. And don't forget to give us a thumbs up five stars write us a sweet review. And if you do that in the next couple of weeks, I promise I will read it on one of our podcast episodes. So yeah, this episode was produced by me, Saadia Khan, written by me and Rainier Harris. The editorial review was done by Shei Yu. Our editor our incredible editor is Haziq Ahmad Farid. Original theme music for Immigrantly is done by Simon Hutchinson. Until next time, take care,