Ep. 223 “I am Always Enough Just Being” with Sahaj Kohli (2021) 

Saadia Khan 0:03

Welcome to Immigrantly, the podcast that offers a safe space for BIPOC folks to share their stories and experiences. I am Saadia Khan, and I'm proud to say that our audio activism has launched a movement, challenging reductive narratives and amplifying diverse voices. And we will continue to do that with your help and support. Now those of you who know me know that as someone who has always been open about my mental health journey, starting conversations about mental health is crucial to me. That's why when Mental Health Awareness Month arrived, I jumped at the opportunity to share a great conversation with you from our vault. In 2021, I interviewed the founder of Brown Girl Therapy Sahaj Kohli. Brown Girl Therapy is a mental health platform that is the first and largest of its kind, providing a safe and inclusive space for first and second generation immigrants to understand and validate their emotional and mental experiences. Sahaj, the brains and energy behind this platform, has witnessed the unique reality faced by many cultures, including her own that did not promote mental health conversations, or even have the language to engage. As a result, her journey towards founding Brown Girl Therapy began as a passion project, but it quickly grew into a worldwide community providing a haven for those looking for a space to engage in discussions about mental health. In addition, she has a monthly mental health advice column at The Lily, a Washington Post publication where she answers questions about identity relationships, mental health, work life balance, family dynamics, and so much more. During our conversation, Sahaj shares her experiences, struggles and insights, shedding light on the importance of having conversations about mental health, particularly within immigrant communities. As someone who has struggled to put my own experiences into words, I know this conversation will resonate with anyone who's ever felt the same. So tune in to hear Sahaj's inspiring journey and to learn more about Brown Girl Therapy. And if you're looking for more diverse content, don't hesitate to reach out to us. We would love to hear from you. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. [Music]

Saadia Khan 3:00

So I want to start with your journey thus far. Can you share your story? Where did you grow up? Where were you born? How did you end up where you are right now?

Sahaj Kohli 3:12

Sure. I'm really excited to be here and be having this conversation with you.

Sahaj Kohli 3:18

So I was born in the suburbs outside of Richmond, Virginia. I'm the first of my family to be born in the West. I have two older siblings who moved to this country with my parents right before I was born. And I was socialized and grew up in a predominantly non Indian environments. So yeah, so my parents are from Punjab, but my mom actually is from Japan. So while she's full Indian, full Punjabi, she grew up in Japan. So I have family in Japan. So I was born outside of Richmond, Virginia. My parents and my siblings were all born in India. But my mom was socialized and grew up in Japan. So I spent most of my years growing up splitting our vacation time between visiting family in India, which would be my paternal family, and splitting my time going to Japan to visit my maternal family. So I feel like I grew up in a tri cultural household because my mom would often make Japanese food. She would often be watching like TV dramas and Japanese and we have a lot of decorations around the house that are Japanese, but you know, my family is Sikh, they follow the Sikh religion, and my dad is fairly religious. And so we grew up speaking Punjabi, you know, going to gurdwara on Sundays, but I was going to school and had friends who were not Sikh or Indian. And in my early 20s, I ended up landing a job in journalism. I worked there for about seven years, and I started to really prioritize mental health and emotional wealth. And that's because something really traumatic happened to me in my early 20s. And I realized, once I had to navigate that whole situation of telling my immigrant parents I wanted to go to therapy, having that conversation with them, having to break down a lot of walls and barriers between the mental health system in this country, and also how to talk about it on a personal level and get my parents to behind, it really led me to understand and be passionate about mental health advocacy and how we take care of ourselves and how we talk about it and normalize mental health care.

Sahaj Kohli 5:16

So I'm working in journalism, I'm doing a lot of emotional wellness and mental health work in journalism. And I ended up staying in journalism for seven years where I ended up working primarily with freelancers of color to share their identity driven stories. So for the last couple of years in journalism, I was a senior editor where I worked with these freelancers to share any identity driven stories, from religion, to sexuality, to race, to gender, to culture, anything that could be identity related. And doing that work really led me to want to become a therapist. I mean, it's something I always thought I wanted to do. But then once I actually got to work one-on-one with writers who gave me the privilege of being able to hear their stories and work with them to share their stories with the world, I realized I really wanted to do that, in a clinical way, but also full time and longer term.

Saadia Khan 6:11

So, Sahaj, you mentioned that you suffered a trauma that was the trigger for you to look towards mental health and talk about it. But it was difficult to have this conversation with your immigrant parents. Why do you think that was the case?

Sahaj Kohli 6:28

I think, you know, at the time, I didn't have the language or wherewithal to really understand what my parents were thinking, or going through at the time, you know, there was a lot of tension and conflict. But now and over the past few years, I've been able to really recognize and acknowledge that my parents just didn't understand it. They didn't understand if they moved to this country. And they were able to do it without any help without any support. Why was it that I was struggling? First of all, second of all, because they loved me so much. They didn't understand why they couldn't just fix the problem themselves. And so I think, you know, again, at the time, I didn't have that type of language, or self actualization to understand that. But now I can say, hey, my immigrant parents came to this country focused on financial security and stability and didn't have access or opportunities or resources or knowledge about emotional security or mental health care. I introduced them to that.

Saadia Khan 7:23

Do you think it's also because as immigrant parents and I'm one, so I can speak to that experience. When we come to the US or we immigrate anywhere else, we assume this designated superhuman role, and we think we are resilient and we're strong, not realizing that we are suffering from alienation, we are suffering from depression, from loneliness, especially parents coming from countries like India and Pakistan, collectivist societies, community based where you are so dependent on your family, on your extended family. And once we come here, it's a lot of recalibration that we have to do and somehow we don't realize, um, how important mental health can be and should be in that evolution. We think that we can do it all on our own. I'm interested in getting your thoughts on it.

Sahaj Kohli 8:23

I mean, yes, I think, you know, like, you can speak to that experience more. But definitely, I think we don't talk enough about immigration, trauma.

Saadia Khan 8:31

Right.

Sahaj Kohli 8:31

That can go for any kind of experience, right. So there's obviously immigration trauma is not a monolith. All immigrants experience, immigration differently, have different privileges are oppressed in different ways. But the mere fact of moving to a country by yourself with only, you know, your spouse or your kids, very limited support, very limited understanding of the culture and the norms, and moving to a place that has wildly different cultural norms is is traumatic because there's, you know, what we call, in mental health, disenfranchised grief, where you are grieving something that isn't socially acceptable or understood. And so we have immigrants who are trying to navigate this new country navigate being new parents, most of the time, raising their kids trying to figure out how to make a living security stability in this country, but also so far away from their families, from their, from their host countries, from their from everything they knew. And that, of course, can be incredibly traumatic. And so I think for my parents, and I can only speak to their experience because I've had conversations with them. They were just forward thinking for them. They didn't have the time to think about what they were feeling. They didn't have time to look to the past. They had to make things work. And so I think that's what helps them build resilience. And they are resilient. I think immigrants are incredibly resilient, but it's also what stops them from being able to access you know, their own feelings about what they were going through or emotional security or wellness.

Saadia Khan 9:57

To be honest, I think it has something to do with how we lack lexicon, how we lack that vernacular, about mental health and well being and how we cannot really verbalize what we are feeling, especially immigrants coming from South Asian culture, having grown up in Pakistan, first of all, mental health conversations are stigmatized. People think that they are Western constructs. And in some ways, having access to mental health is a privilege. Not everybody has access to mental health because they are struggling to, you know, get their basic needs met. And most of the time we rely on our family or spiritual guides to talk about mental health issues. Did you feel that initially? Did you find it difficult to verbalize what you would feeling emotionally?

Sahaj Kohli 10:55

Definitely. I wasn't. And I've actually had this conversation with my parents recently, where, you know, even though my brother and my sister are immigrants, they are 1.5 [generation] immigrants. So they moved here very young and still identify with the American culture and American parenting and American norms. And so we've had this conversation with my parents about how they didn't teach us how to communicate our feelings or express ourselves, right? We were emotionally repressed, which is not to say that it's my parents fault, but it was just a parenting style, because that's how they were taught. They weren't taught how to express their emotions. And we tend to pass those types of behaviors and patterns from generation to generation. And I do think, you know, therapy, as we've come to talk about it and learn about it is definitely a western concept, you know, focuses primarily on individualization and individuation, and like you said, where we're coming from a lot of immigrant communities are collectivist in nature. So, mental health care in the system that we live in, in the United States, it does come from a general medical model of trying to fix something but it's important to note that mental health and healing are not Western concepts, right? We have meditation and mindfulness practices Ayurverda from India, traditional West African voodoo. Reiki is a Japanese form of energy healing indigenous healing practices. And I think what's really important is that to recognize is that mental health care and healing are not a one size fits all. It does look different for all of us. And so I think having those conversations and being able to express that with my parents, and also find ways that work for them, because even though they didn't have the ability to talk about their emotions, or what they were going through, I do think that when I look back, mental health was still discussed in some way in my family, like my parents did focus on eating well as a form of wellness, you know, I can look back and now think of times where my parents might be, you know, dealing with somatic symptoms or physical symptoms that I think now I can I can point to manifestations of stress, and overwhelm, and mental health struggles. So we all talk about our mental health struggles in very different ways using very different language.

Saadia Khan 13:03

Right. So I was looking at your Twitter feed, and your pinned tweet caught my attention, and I wanted to unpack it with you. And let me just read it first.

Many children of immigrants have access to resources our parents didn't have. And prioritizing healing and growth is great and all, but can we please talk about what it really feels like and how incredibly painful and hard it can be to emotionally outgrow your parents and family?

Saadia Khan 13:33

It just sounds so beautiful, Sahaj. But I want to understand what do you mean by emotionally outgrow your parents and family?

Sahaj Kohli 13:43

I actually had this conversation with my parents before I posted this. And basically, I think they moved to this country and they focused on financial security and economic security and stability. I then wasn't I wasn't in a place where I needed to focus on that. Right. My parents did that work. And I had a privileged upbringing, I had access to resources, you know, even just growing up and as a millennial with social media and technology in a way that my parents didn't. I have access to language about talking about my feelings. I have access to knowledge that my parents didn't have access to. And I think that's a generational thing, not necessarily a cultural thing. But the cultural aspect is that because I've had this freedom to really explore things, do my own research, meet different people and not have to worry about the financial and economic stability side of things. I've been able to do the work, access therapy, which is inaccessible for a lot of people I've been able to access that though I've been able to access mental health care and really think about and reflect on what self care looks like for me what mental health care looks like for me and doing that work, and really doing the work to discover the patterns in my family system. Intergenerational trauma. Behavior that I've developed from my childhood, or from my parents that were passed down, these things have then led me to become more self actualized that my parents. So when I say emotionally outgrow, I don't necessarily mean that I'm better than my parents, I just mean that I have much more. I have a much more self reflective ability to understand why I am the way I am, why my parents do or say or act in certain ways, what our family patterns are. And a lot of that can feel very burdensome when I'm talking to my parents or trying to navigate situations with them where they just don't understand because they didn't do the work that I've been able to do because I had access to it.

Saadia Khan 15:42

How, as a kid of immigrants, do you balance two cultures, which are so incredibly different, as I mentioned, in the beginning, collectivist, and then we have American hyper individualism, right? And then there are expectations that your parents have from you, expectations of dependence, expectations of emotional connection. And as you mentioned, you have outgrown some of it because of your own experiences. What kind of mental burden does it take on children of immigrants?

Sahaj Kohli 16:15

I think there is a perpetual tug of war, you know, for children of immigrants, and I can't say what's right and what's wrong, because it is a very personal decision, but being bicultural, especially in the United States, you know, where it's when I think about my cousins who grew up in Japan, we had very different experiences, because they still grew up as children of immigrants in a country that has Eastern values. So for me, I'm growing up in a culture where the the values and the norms are very different. And it's not to say one is better than the other, but they are most of the time at war with each other. So when I was growing up, I didn't have the knowledge or the awareness of how to balance those right, I did what I was told by my parents I, I was an adolescence where developmentally I craved belonging and acceptance in my socialized environments at schools, I, you know, wasn't conscious about trying to navigate it bicultural identity, it just happened. And so as I got older and into my 20s, and now I'm in my 30s, and have been able to really reflect on my bicultural identity development. How I can maintain it, what's important to me, really doing the work to understand my own values, and pulling and picking and choosing from the values that really are authentic to who I am, has helped me be able to navigate and straddle both cultures.

Saadia Khan 17:36

Do you have resentment towards your parents because of that? Because I feel like sometimes kids have that resentment, there is a lot of burden to bear on both sides, as immigrants and immigrant kids. Do you resent your parents? Have you resented your parents?

Sahaj Kohli 17:53

I mean, I would be lying if I didn't say I have resented them. In the past, I think when I was younger, again, I mean, I think most parents deal with that from their kids. But I think I think I didn't know how to articulate a what I was going through. But I also didn't have the wherewithal to have compassion for what my parents were going through simultaneously. I don't have resentment towards them. Now, I do, however, sometimes grieve certain parts of our relationship that may never be certain parts of my childhood that were the way they were, but I'm not resentful about it.

Saadia Khan 18:25

How do you think, Sahaj, immigrant parents can do a better job of understanding their kids?

Sahaj Kohli 18:33

You know, I think when I have talked to my parents now about my childhood, and the, you know, things that did or didn't happen, my parents have admitted that they may not have been as curious as they should have been about what my experience was, like, you know, they expected certain things. And that was it. That was all that mattered. They expected certain grades, they expected certain for me to be home at certain times, they expected me to go to certain events with them. But there wasn't really a curiosity of, of who my friends were of what I was feeling if I was being bullied, you know, what my experience was like, in different parts of my life.

Sahaj Kohli 19:09

And I think that is something that immigrant parents can do now, especially immigrant kid parents, who I don't have that experience yet of having to raise my own kids in this country. But I do know that even when that happens, I hope to be able to give them access to emotional communication resources to be able to share their feelings and thoughts on things to feel like they can open up to me about what they're going through, even if I can't relate to it and to really be mindful of racial and ethnic identity formation, which is really which is happening as an adolescent, right? So anywhere between the age of like 10 and 21 is when we're really forming our identity as people. So it's important to have those conversations and I tried to replicate that with my nephews. I have one nephew who just turned 10 And I tried to ask him: How's school? Are you getting bullied? What are your friends? Like? What do they like about you? What do you like about them? How does it feel when you know so and so happens or something happens. And I feel like just being able to open those those lanes of communication can do wonders for the child, but also for your relationship with them.

Saadia Khan 20:16

I think to some extent, it is generational because I talk to my kids about everything, and they talk to me about things. But I think my parents could not have those conversations with me, that's an evolution in itself, I am trying to reassess and recalibrate my expectations of them and their expectations of me. But it's a lot of work, it seems like the more you give, and the more you take, it just is this like never ending back and forth, especially because of the cultural differences between two places between Pakistan and the US. Sometimes I feel that I try to preach them, but it doesn't work at times, you know. And that takes a lot of mental toll on me that I have to internalize as a parent.

Sahaj Kohli 21:08

I mean, of course, and I think, you know, the goal here is not for you to be perfect, because you will not be able to be a perfect parent. I think, you know, one thing I want to say even though I am not a parent is that if you are doing the things you feel like you want to be doing, reading the books with them, talking about identity bridging, you know, the cultures, you know, making home cooked Pakistani food for them, always smelling those curries and the spices, you know. These are things that they might not acknowledge right now at the age that they are, but I assure you, when they get older, and they look back on their childhood, and the things that you did, and start to have the self actualization that they formed themselves, these things will be really important.

Saadia Khan 21:48

So now I want to pivot to Brown Girl Therapy. First, can I say how thankful I am for all the work, the healing that is being done on your platform, it is revolutionary to see mental health being addressed in the context of children on immigrants, it doesn't happen, right? First, as a country, and as a society, mental health is already an under I guess researched and under discussed, rather in the US. But to carve out the space that you have and to tackle social cultural nuances of being, you know, second generation kid of immigrants is so so so incredible. In fact, I shared your Brown Girl Therapy's handle with my daughter, because I wanted her to know that there is a resource out there that she can use freely. So something that started as a passion project for you so harsh, has become this huge online community where we see reflections happening, advice is shared.

Saadia Khan 22:56

Can you explain how and when all of this came together? And what was the spark? You've touched upon it in beginning, but let's revisit it.

Sahaj Kohli 23:06

Yeah. First, I want to say thank you. I'm really humbled that, you know, you've talked so highly about it, but also that you've shared it with your daughter. I think that is the biggest compliment and testament of the work I am trying to do. So thank you. But as for Brown Girl Therapy, yes. So, you know, if I go back to when I was working as a journalist, and all of the things that I've became passionate about in terms of identity driven narratives, I like to say now that my passion is at the intersection of narrative storytelling and mental health. So I applied for graduate school a couple of years ago, I am currently a second year graduate student studying clinical mental health counseling in DC, but also working as a supervised counseling intern at a clinic. And so I guess now it's 2021. So in 2019, when I started Brown Girl Therapy, it was really supposed to be the bridge for me between potentially leaving at that time journalism and entering the second career in mental health. And I knew as someone who likes media, who likes social media, who can understand the power of it when it's used responsibly and appropriately, who is a writer by trade, and now who is entering this field where I can, I can really tap into my passion on mental health advocacy, working for marginalized communities, really giving back to my own community, you know, the Sikh community, the South Asian community, the Indian community.

Sahaj Kohli 24:31

It was important to me to create something and so I'll be honest, when I first started Brown Girl Therapy, hence the name Brown Girl Therapy, it was supposed to be just a platform for South Asian women. I at the time, was marrying someone who was outside of my race and religion, I was undergoing my own identity crises, and I really selfishly wanted to connect with other South Asian women who might be struggling with their identity as well as I built Brown Girl Therapy though from the very beginning, I did a lot of research I will looked at other platforms. And I realized, you know, there really isn't there just there wasn't anything that existed for children of immigrants when it comes to mental health. And as I reflected on my experiences, I realized a lot of my struggles are rooted in this biculturalism in this identity as a child of immigrants, and so I started to write about it. And it just blew me away how much it resonated with people and how much we are underserved and under acknowledged in the mental health care system. Now being almost two years into graduate school, you know, learning about theories and techniques and mental health care and how to be a clinician in this country, I still realize I'm a minority in the mental health system, I am still realizing how underserved we are. So really, my passion is is bridging that gap and providing access and resources and content to a community that is historically known to be minoritized and underserved in this country, but also just in their country generationally, really helping provide those resources to have these hard conversations, to really step back and reflect on our experiences as bicultural individuals. And that's where I am today.

Saadia Khan 26:10

Have you received any criticism or pushback on this being not a replacement for actual patient provided therapy?

Sahaj Kohli 26:20

I haven't. No. So many people use social media to educate and to bring awareness to issues I am very clear, and often remind the community about my credentials about my ethics. You know, I have disclaimers on social media that it's not therapy. But you know, I also want to point out that social media has proven itself to be an essential tool to reaching communities that are underserved to have less access and are generally marginalized in the mental health system, like Brown Girl Therapy is proof that when we meet the community where they are, it can do wonders for being able to provide resources and access to care in ways that might not be typical traditional therapy, but still allow people to do that work on their own if they can't access it.

Saadia Khan 27:03

And this is such an important point, because not everybody has access to insurance, and not everybody has access to therapists. So what I love about your platform is that it's for diverse voices. And it is by diverse voice, which is so important, so Sahaj, you do so much work, and I'm sure you tried to take care of your mental health. Are there any books or resources that have helped you look inwards and complete this journey, or even people in your life that have pushed you to consider these difficult topics?

Sahaj Kohli 27:38

Yeah. So you know, I think first and foremost, it's important for me to recognize and acknowledge that, while my parents have been rather stuck in their way for most of my life, over the last 5-10 years, they really have adapted they have adapted to, you know, what my life looks like that what I want my life to look like to, to learning about me to supporting me even when they don't understand what it is I'm doing or pursuing. And I think that that is something that has really driven me to want to do this work. Because as much as the work I do is for children of immigrants to have them have resources, it's also to bridge the gap between children of immigrants and their immigrant parents.

Sahaj Kohli 28:21

In terms of books and resources, two books that come to mind are It Didn't Start With You by Mark Wolynn, which is about inherited family trauma, which really speaks to intergenerational trauma, and just trauma and behaviors and mindsets that are passed down from generation to generation. And a second book is called Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, which really focuses on just that aspect of, you know, emotionally outgrowing your parents, and just emeshment, and for more extreme family systems, you know, dysfunctionality in the family system, which just helped me put into context, working with immigrant families and marginalized family systems in general.

Sahaj Kohli 29:04

I would say also Brave not perfect by Reshma Saujani is really great.

Sahaj Kohli 29:09

Maybe You Should Talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb, if anyone is interested in going to therapy, and doesn't really understand what that looks like. This book is written by a therapist who actually goes to therapy and kind of bridges the gap between what it's like to be a clinician, but also to access and go to therapy as a clinician.

Saadia Khan 29:26

Let's talk about something that you mentioned, your spouse is from a different culture. You said from a different race. How has that been easy or difficult navigating marital life? And how supportive is your spouse on what you're doing?

Sahaj Kohli 29:42

So I will first say he has been incredibly supportive. I don't know that I would have married him if he wasn't incredibly supportive of how important my identity and culture is to me, and that is, you know, something I really want to drive home because it's an I just I don't think partner choice should just be made nilly willy, I think we want people who will support us and love us and embrace us as whole individuals, no matter what race and ethnicity and identity they are. As for how hard or easy it is, you know, I will need to acknowledge here that my partner is white. And so I have made it easier on myself in that way. Because we do come from, you know, we do live in a society and I do come from a culture that does have colorism that does have anti-Blackness rooted in it. And so in that way, you know, it was easier for me to choose a white partner than it would have been for me to choose a Black partner, for instance. And so, and that way, my parents, you know, didn't have that extra layer of having to I didn't have, I didn't have that extra layer of having to dismantle anti-Blackness in that way, when it comes to my partner. I do that work in other ways, but not necessarily in my marriage.

Sahaj Kohli 30:51

In terms of how hard it is, I would say, you know, I'm perpetually on this journey of navigating my bicultural identity. And that's something that that my partner and I talk about, often we talk about it more than I would have had to talk about it if I married someone who was a Punjabi Sikh Indian, you know, so it's something that makes our relationship that much more beautiful, because we have all of these really open conversations around race and ethnicity and identity. But it also can sometimes be emotionally taxing. So we work together to find that balance to do that work together, but to also enjoy our marriage and to, to really think about what our marriage is going to look like for however many years we're together and building a family and what that looks like and what raising kids look like. And so for me, I am always going to be on this journey. And I have a partner who understands that, supports that, and is curious about that.

Saadia Khan 31:43

That's beautiful. I love it. Sahaj, what is a common misconception when it comes to mental health that you would like children of immigrants listening to this podcast, to know about something that really hit home for you, when you realized it?

Sahaj Kohli 32:00

I think, you know, just doing this work, there have been so many that come up. But the one that really hit home for me and that I still hear about all the time from people who are a part of the Brown Girl Therapy community is that because our parents may have experienced worse, we shouldn't be struggling nor should we need or want to go to therapy. And so that's a huge misconception.

Sahaj Kohli 32:22

And to those folks, I want to remind them, that pain and struggle are not a competition, and your parents' experiences. And your experiences are both valid and worthy of attention. Because I see a lot of children of immigrants try to talk themselves out of betterment, or mental health care or, or therapy or doing this work because their parents did it just fine and didn't need it. Or went through things that were worse than them. And so they talk themselves out of struggling or are too scared to admit that they're struggling because they feel like they shouldn't be. And so that is just a huge misconception.

Saadia Khan 32:59

And I want to add something here as an immigrant parent, and I can't speak to all immigrant parents' experiences, but I can say this, yes, we may be resilient, but it's hard. And we do suffer mental trauma and we may not acknowledge it in front of our kids. But it is so so so important to realize that there are days when I am depressed and I don't want to get out of my bed and I go to my therapist and have these long conversations and it's okay. We don't have to be superhumans and kids of immigrants don't have to look at their parents as superhumans. We are all flawed, who can be vulnerable, weak, resilient, emotional, strong, smart, everything.

Sahaj Kohli 33:44

Yes, I love that that perspective is just it's so important. And it's so important for everyone other immigrant parents, but also children of immigrants to acknowledge.

Saadia Khan 33:54

So now much of your work is in community building. We've talked about that and shedding light on the intimacies of the mind, its ups and downs. And when it comes to by cultural identity, what are your thoughts on policy and more structural changes that need to happen to support immigrant groups and promote mental health within?

Saadia Khan 34:16

Are we looking to representatives elected officials to do that? Is there a grassroots movement like Brown Girl Therapy is something that's rooted in community?

Sahaj Kohli 34:29

You know, I think that there are different layers to this. I think, of course, we have policy and structural issues at hand, you know, with how our insurance works about how much it covers about access to care in just a general structural manner. But then we do have the grassroots issues, you know, so I think it's really important for mental health professionals and those in the field or who are mental health advocates to meet communities where they are. I think one of the things when I started Brown Girl Therapy was doing it again, selfishly, for myself. Yes, because I'm passionate but something I've really realized over the last year and a half since it's been growing is that this is where the work is. If I'm not willing to meet the community where they are, how much work can I actually do for them? How much can I actually help them if I don't learn about them, if I don't talk to them directly, if I don't meet them where they are, if I don't go to the schools, or the, you know, events or the places of worship to to meet them where they are, and I think a lot of mental health counselors and mental health professionals should be adding that to a part of their work. The work isn't just in the room with the clients. It's also what you do outside of that room, who you're talking to who you network with, how you represent yourself, where you're meeting the community and how you're learning about other forms of healing other forms of community and other forms of mental health care.

Saadia Khan 35:55

Exactly. And in the end, Sahaj, I ask all my guests this question, but as a mental health advocate, if you were to describe America in a word or a sentence, how would you do that?

Sahaj Kohli 36:09

Oh, that's a good question.

Sahaj Kohli 36:11

If I had to describe America, I think, you know, right now with everything that's been going on, you know, we had the insurrection on January 6, I live in D.C. So a lot of that is really salient. And really, what I'm feeling and what I've been thinking about lately, I would use the word troubled to really describe America right now.

Sahaj Kohli 36:32

I will add to that, that I do have hope that we can, you know, make life better for all people living in this country, but it is just a really long journey. And right now, given everything that's been going on, I do feel a little bit deflated. And so I think that's where I am at this moment as we're having this conversation. [Music]

Saadia Khan 36:58

This is one of my favorite conversations on Immigrantly. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did listening to it, recording having this conversation with Sahaj. The re-released was produced by me, Saadia Khan, and our incredible editor for the release is Haziq Ahmad Farid. The editorial review was done by Shei Yu. We will see you next week with a new episode of Immigrantly, take care. [Music]