Ep-232 The Kaleidoscope of Creativity
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[Music]
Saadia Khan
Welcome to Immigrantly the podcast that delves deep into the world of immigrant experiences sharing authentic stories, unapologetically. And wholly I'm your host, Claudia fan. Before we jump into today's episode, I have some announcements. Have you heard about our Patreon? Well, by subscribing you can support Immigrantly and help us continue creating this great content. And if you haven't already, please sign up for our newsletter and follow us on social media. It's the best way to stay connected and be part of the immigrant community where we share important updates and stories. And by the way, we got almost 1000 followers on Instagram alone last week. If any of you are here today. Welcome to the podcast. I am so honored and excited to have all of you here as I sit down with my guest for candid chat.
Now, I clearly remember the early 2000s When I arrived in the US reality TV became my gateway into American society. Even though I will admit I knew it presented an exaggerated version of reality. Despite recognizing its flaws. I found solace in the messy human experiences that showcased. However, a few years ago, something changed. I reached a tipping point and stopped watching reality TV altogether. Yeah, I could not watch it anymore. It had become mentally exhausting almost a mirror reflecting the toxicity of real life. Honestly, I couldn't help but internalize the negativity it perpetuated. So I was like, no more reality TV, then came along in Indian Matchmaking, a show that almost lured me back into the reality TV routine.
[Excerpt from Indian Matchmaking]
Saadia Khan
While the show can be unsettling at times, I truly appreciate how this show sheds light on the intricacies of South Asian culture surrounding arranged marriages are those of you who listen to Immigrantly regularly know we did a whole episode on arranged marriages. So if you haven't checked that out, go back to our season about love and relationships and check out that particular episode. Anyways, often misunderstood and conflated with forced marriages, the concept of arranged marriage is frequently dismissed, and almost criticized in the Western world, but Indian Matchmaking challenges these misconceptions and encourages a more nuanced exploration of the idea.
Today, I am so thrilled to be interviewing the brains behind Indian Matchmaking and much more. Yes, she is the acclaimed director and producer Smriti Mundhra. Smriti is the founder of Murata films, a Los Angeles and Mumbai based production company. She was nominated for an Oscar for her 2019 film St. Louis Superman, following Missouri politician Bruce Flanks Jr. after the Ferguson riots. .
[Excerpt from St. Louis Superman]
Her production company has also produced The Romantics on Netflix, Growing Up on Disney+, shows on HBO, Max and so much more. Today, we get to hear from Smiriti herself about the inspirations behind her work and her exciting journey to where she is today. So are you ready? Let's get started.
[Music ]
Smriti Mundhara
Sorry about that.
Saadia Khan
You didn't have the right link.
Smriti Mundhara
No, I just pressed the wrong link on my calendar. Oh, it's hectic morning. I hope you're well. I hope everything's fine. Yeah, everything is good. I'm in my car just because I have two small children and they will not leave us alone.
Saadia Khan
Oh yeah, I've been there. I know I have teenagers so it's a bit different.
Smriti Mundhara
Oh, wow.
Saadia Khan
Yeah, but it's pouring outside. I don't know if you can hear the noise. It's a much needed reprieve from the heat. But still, I've been it'll be a challenge for my editor. Haziq, I’m sorry, you’ll have to manage this. So tell me how are you doing?
Smriti Mundhara
I'm very well- just try to stay afloat.
Saadia Khan
So Smriti, I am a huge fan of your work. I've seen A Suitable Girl. I have been just watched Indian Matchmaking, Jewish Matchmaking. I watched The Romantics. How could I not watch The Romantics. Right? I grew up watching Yash Chopra, his films. And I am curious to know where do you get inspiration from where did this and when did this journey start? I know your dad was a filmmaker as well, although he pursued PhD engineering, but he also did filmmaking. So tell me where did it all start?
Smriti Mundhara
That's pretty much where it started. You know, my father was a filmmaker, he was completely self taught, self made. He had no industry connections, he really against odds that we couldn't even imagine today pursued a career as a filmmaker and succeeded. He made his first film the year that I was born and never looked back. That was the last time he ever taught or did anything engineering related. And he made films for the rest of his life until he passed away. So I that's what I grew up with. I grew up not only with his incredible passion for cinema and the process of filmmaking, but also his hustle and his drive. And I think that's kind of how the journey began for me.
Saadia Khan
What was your connection with Indian cinema growing up?
Smriti Mundhara
Before it was born, my parents had a single screen movie theater in Los Angeles called the Meralta Theater, which was the first theater to exhibit Hindi films in America. So they were very connected to that part of their lives. Obviously, like so many Indians grew up watching Hindi films, but also from in terms of the industry. My parents started the theater because my dad wanted to make connections in the Hindi film industry. He became an exhibitor. And that's sort of how he made his contacts.
One of the first people he met during that time was Yash Chopra. Ah, because they premiered Kabhi Kabhie at the [inaudible] Theatre in LA. So growing up in an immigrant household, you know, with Indian parents and all of our sort of surrounding family and all of that Hindi cinema was just a huge part of our lives, but particularly for me, just because my parents, you know, were also connected to the industry. And as my dad's career progressed, he made his first two films in India. His first film was with Shabana Azmi and the novel, we lived in a three bedroom condo, you know, in Los Angeles and suburban Los Angeles. Actually, it was two bedroom condo because I remember that because I was always displaced out of my bedroom when we had guests to go like sleep elsewhere. Growing up, I remember always we had people when they would come to LA and stay for weeks and months. Sometimes they would come for a meal cup of chai, sometimes they would come and stay for a long time. I mean, everyone from Yash Chopra, Shabana Azmi, Shekhar Kapoor, Zeenat Aman. These people were like family growing up, you know, I didn't realize the significance of their roles. But But yeah, it was sort of always around me at all times.
[Music]
Saadia Khan
Three, three, you also lived in India. Was there a point when you guys moved back? Yeah,
Smriti Mundhara
I live there because my father in his early careers, was working a lot in India. He's got his first few films he did were in India. So I lived in Bombay until I was was about six years old. And then we moved back when my dad got opportunities in the film industry out here, and I did the rest of my schooling here, but every summer holiday winter break, we will go back to India, so I spent a lot of time in India.
Saadia Khan
Share some memories of your time in India.
Saadia Khan
The most nostalgic memories I have of my time in India are pre liberalisation because I just remember summers monsoons, mangoes, COMEX getting that two hour block on Star plus trying to find something to watch on Doordarshan going down in the courtyard of our building at four o'clock every day and playing with the kids and that place in Crawford Market. My nanny would take me to and we would have Falooda
Saadia Khan
Oh my gosh falooda
Smriti Mundhara
Going into those like lending libraries that are just like tucked in, you know, in the street corners and trying to get as many Archie Comics and Enid Blyton books as I could our checkout our comics and all of that kind of stuff. You know, I romanticize that time, but like my memories are from that time.
Saadia Khan
I love it. I really do and your work is also very transcultural, Smriti, we can see that you are probably one of the very few filmmakers who has been able to engage the American cinema and Hindi cinema at a level of high visibility. And you've introduced concepts that were so South Asian in a way, but at the same time, they are so universal, the concept of arranged marriage, which unfortunately, in American society has been taboo for so long conflated with forced marriage. We grew up in a culture and a society where arranged marriage is still a norm. And it is a beautiful process. If people understood it. I was reading somewhere that when you decided to do Indian matchmaking, you thought it would start a conversation within the South Asian community, you weren't sure that it will resonate with the broader American audience? What kind of conversation were you hoping to start with Indian matchmaking?
Smriti Mundhara
Honestly, exactly what happened, controversy and all I think sometimes you need something big and noisy and global, to start a meaningful conversation within your own garden, you know, so to speak your own family. And I think that's what Indian matchmaking was, there was nothing new conceptually, there's nothing we haven't lived through 1000 Hindi films in literature, and there was nothing new in Indian matchmaking in that regard, because the fact that it became so buzzy across the globe and there was you know, you had this sort of firecracker of a central character with Seema from Mumbai.
[Excerpt from Indian Matchmaking]
Auntie as I enjoy writing poetry a lot, someone who loves poetry. I think Michelle is too influenced by films and fairytales I think she doesn't have to marry a poet. She can always read a book.
Smriti Mundhara
To saying the things that every Auntie that you know, we've ever known as said, you know, just saying it on to an audience of, you know, 190 million people. I love this so much like people would send me screenshots of their family WhatsApp groups, it would be like multiple generations like grandparents and parents, aunts, uncles, younger people in India in the US debating the choices of the characters in the show kind of talking debating like the things that Seema Auntie said. Is she a truth teller? Is she- Can I curse on this podcast?
Saadia Khan
Absolutely.
Smriti Mundhara
Is she a shit-starter? Is she, you know, progressive? It's like those are conversations that were happening multi generationally. And, you know, even when you're fighting, like, that's how you come to understand each other better, and maybe evolving a little bit. So I think I was really excited by that. And proud of that, even though some of the arrows were pointed at me, it was exciting to see that we were having, you know, such a large scale conversation about some of our cultural traditions and the value of them and also the aspects of them that felt out of place, you know, for a new generation. And it was like, if my show helped a millennial have that conversation with her daddy or her nanny, you know, or in laws or whatever it is. That's to me is there's no greater aim for the things that I made,
Saadia Khan
Smriti, what was some of the criticism directed at you or the show itself?
Smriti Mundhara
Honestly, like, I think a lot of the criticism of the show is critique of not only arranged marriage itself, but marriage, if you take the Indian concept out of it and cross off the word arranged, a lot of the things that people were critiquing about the show is true of marriage as an institution, no matter what background you're from, you know, marriage, inherently as an institution is built on the backs of women it inherently requires, at least now I mean, how now hopefully, these things will change, you know, generation to generation, but until at least my generation typically expected more sacrifice on the part of the woman, we're the ones that change our names, were the ones that internalize all these things about what it means to be marriageable, were the ones that also all of us men and women alike. We self select according to criteria, you know, that we maybe don't speak out loud in the way that cminds and her clients do. But we do when we're on dating apps and everything we're selecting for educational background, religious background, all of that kind of stuff, right? I just think that a lot of these things were externalized and noisy and my show so the show drew a lot of critique for quote unquote glorifying, you know, those aspects. Now I see it differently. I don't think that the show glorified those aspects. I think, honestly, if the goal was to glorify arranged marriage, we could have easily taken out and hidden away the three or four references to skin color or caste or this or that, that would have been easy things to edit out. But we deliberately left those things in there, because that's the truth of our culture. Those are things we should talk about and address.
Saadia Khan
You're absolutely right. And in terms of self select, even dating apps, as you said, allow people to self select. But somehow people are more comfortable with an algorithm deciding for them, then a person like Seema Auntie or their parents, and that could be because of America's romanticism with individualism, you feel like you are in control, but you're really not in control.
Smriti Mundhara
Absolutely
Saadia Khan
And to your point, you're absolutely right. I don't think as somebody who watched Indian matchmaking that was glorifying all of that, in fact, it was a conversation starter for all of us in our household as well with my teenage girls. We weren't having those conversations about what makes sense and what doesn't. And obviously, you know, emotions were high at times, but that's what the show is supposed to do. [Music]
Saadia Khan
Talk to me about your other works. Murthy, the way I see it, you have created Indian matchmaking based on arranged marriages. But then you also talk about American political system, what is the guiding principle through line or ethos that you follow in your work other than it being unscripted and nonfiction storytelling.
Smriti Mundhara
We're doing more fiction as well. But the ethos always remains the same. It's always like everything that I do, whether it's as a producer or director or writer, I sort of tap into my needs as both a citizen and as an audience, right. So as a citizen, either of America, which is the place where I live, most of the time, or of India, you know, a country that is my sort of homeland, I try to explore the things that shape us culturally, politically, and that have real bearing on our lives. You have Indian matchmaking on one side, which you know, I think really hit at both things, it kind of hit at my the way I look at content as a consumer as an audience member, where I just want something that's going to be entertaining, that's going to be fun, but then it's going to drop some truth bombs, you know, right, that's going to, you know, reveal something to us like through that humor. And through that zanyness is going to reveal something to us about who we are hold a mirror up on the other end of the spectrum, you know, my films like St. Louis, Superman, or shelter, which is about the housing crisis in America, you know, navigated by young people and their families. I'm currently working on a film right now, that's about a death row prisoner. And you know, his last days before his execution, I mean, it's very American in that regard. I started making St. Louis Superman long before the 2020, uprisings and protests, but there was something in the air, you know, post Trump, there was this new generation of activist leaders, political leaders who are stepping up to the plate, who were directly affected by the policies that were advocating for. And I wanted to show what that look like for somebody who's a young person who could, you know, hasn't been groomed for political life, they're gonna go to Yale and do you know, blah, blah, blah, you know, clerk for a judge and all of that, but who got into politics because of his connection with his community. And because He urgently felt a need to solve a crisis within his community. But that required him to tear open his own wounds. And that left him with a lot of trauma.
And I think that's what the new generation of leaders is, and should be rightfully, but we also we, as citizens need to understand that so we can better support them and also understand like what we want out of our political system, similarly, you know, shelter about the housing crisis, I live in Los Angeles, one of the wealthiest states in the country, with also the highest unhoused population. And, you know, learning about that process, literally spending time with people, families with young children who are going through trying to literally just day after day trying to find a roof over their heads, trying to figure out you know, how to budget on house people often pay more in rent for hotels, and these cheap motels and things like that, then I pay for the mortgage on my house, I wanted to show the ins and outs of that system. It's a curiosity about the world that I live in and wanting to understand, from a nuanced you know, like the things that in practice, as opposed to just shouting, you know, from the coasts in these very ill informed positions.
Saadia Khan
I'm glad you said that, because that is so important for consumer to see the nuances of storytelling, but talking about storytelling with writers strike and debate around AI. How will that impact how storytellers especially from marginalized communities fit in to those conversations, especially with the use of AI? How much storytelling will be authentic?
Smriti Mundhara
I'm so reluctant to share a point of view on AI because it's so nascent and we don't know what we don't know, I can maybe respond to the current capabilities of chatGPT And whether that feels like a threat to our industry. And to that, I would say no, it's not. That's the current July 9, 2020. of ChatGBT, those who know, next month, suddenly they'll be a hologram, I'll be walking around, and I'll have no control over it. Who knows, it's a worthy conversation to be having. It's a worthy debate to be having because the last writer strike was before the internet age, like the dawn of streaming, and nobody really knew what that was going to become right. And now, you know, we've seen how it's completely upended our industry. So I think it's worth taking a pause and trying to game out all the scenarios that AI could have on creative work, and try to protect creators. And when I say protect creators, I mean, not only from AI, but I think protect creators within a system that includes AI, right, because I don't think it's going anywhere, I don't think we can regulate our way away from it. I don't think we could stave off the inevitable for too long. But we can take a pause and really understand it and make sure that creators understand the future of AI, and then advocate, you know, for a system that gives them agency and control. So it's not just the systemic forces, whether it's the studio system, or you know, corporate America or whatever, that's able to harness the power of AI creators should be able to harness that power to for me, I see it more clearly with public personalities like celebrities and people in the public eye, because you can see right now chatbot, like can emulate people or deep fakes that can make you think like Tom Cruise is playing a guitar, and singing the song to you when he's not
[Excerpt of Tom Curse playing Dave Matthews]
Smriti Mundhara
That feels very immediate to me, you know, because if someone can take your image, and there's enough of a dataset of you online, if you've done enough interviews, or if you've spoken enough in the media, like someone can create a likeness of you, you know, and then we are not as a society are not literate enough yet to tell the difference between something that's an AI fake and something that's real, right. And then I think, you know, the stuff, you know, in terms of how AI is going to be used to replace creators, you know, and take over creative work is also very urgent, I just think it again comes down to how can we, as creators, harness it and use it and have a stake in it and control over it, as opposed to how can we stop it? Because I don't think we could stop it.
Saadia Khan
Absolutely. Smriti, I want to pivot a little and talk about fiction, you've mentioned that you are doing some work in fiction, and I was looking at this New Yorker piece where iconic toy company, Mattel is going to create over 40 movies about their different iterations of toys. And I wonder how you see your fiction, storytelling different from things like that.
Smriti Mundhara
I know, there's a lot of malaise from that Mattel story about the commercialization of storytelling and content, and we're just operating at different levels of things we've already seen before. Cinema is the most expensive, artistic medium, potentially, like, you know, in the world, right? It's a business. It has a commercial aspect to it. We can't deny that, you know, we can't live in a fantasy world where we only make small, independent arthouse films, you know, and then complain that no one's watching them. There should be a spectrum of work, there should be small, independent arthouse films, we should have those and we should have a system a broader global system that that allows for, you know, that kind of creation, we should have giant commercial Barbie movie type films. I think for me, what it comes down to the common denominator in everything is as consumers of content as audiences as people, we need to be more literate about the content we're consuming, whether that's journalism, whether that's movies, whether that's even independent films, everything has an agenda, and we need to be literate to understand what that agenda is and then consume that content with eyes open. Right? So am I going to take my daughter to see the Barbie movie? Absolutely. Do I understand that this is a vehicle you know, for like a mass consumerist movement, you know, and those Barbie products like everywhere now, you know, and it's creating a desire and her to want those products and all of that, yes, I get that. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to be interested in seeing a film made by one of the most talented foremost filmmakers working today that may have an interesting subversive feminist message. Maybe I haven't seen the film. So I don't know that to be true. And that's also just going to be a fun summer movie. I'm going to engage with that. But hopefully with eyes open and understanding that yes, they're also trying to sell me products. You talked
Saadia Khan
about literacy among consumers. And this is something that honestly r&d, we talk a lot about how do you think we can create that literacy?
Smriti Mundhara
I 100% think it's the responsibility of the consumer, it has to be because creators are always going to have an agenda always. And whether you're working on an independent level, or you're working on the biggest, you know, studio corporate level, we have to work within a system, right in order to get our content made. And sometimes you have to make compromises. Sometimes we have to promote certain narratives. And sometimes, you know, we have to sell products like we have to work within a system, a consumerist capitalist system to make our content no matter what unless you're like the purists, you know, on in fact, within type of documentary filmmaker, you know, who's like, maybe someone like him is immune to some of these things. But I think unless you're, you know, literally doing God's work and, you know, making films and giving them away for free, and, you know, whatever it is, like you're working within a capitalist system, as a creator. And so I think it has to be incumbent. And it's of the interest of the consumer to become more literate about what the agenda is that they're taking in through what they're watching and what they're consuming. And honestly, I feel like people of color and immigrants, we are probably a few steps ahead, and being able to, to unpack and be able to see more clearly, just because we have to decode things around us all the time. And we have to code switch all the time. So I think we're probably better able to be conscious consumers and aware consumers, even of creative products than most people are,
Saadia Khan
This is such an important point because we are intentional not because we want to be intentional, but because there are so many environmental stresses around us that we are always aware. And we are more aware of how we are portrayed or how people view us. So it's a constant at times exhausting work. Absolutely. 3d, I cannot let you go without talking about the romantics. What do you think about the term body?
[Excerpt from The Romantics]
Saadia Khan
Talk to me about the series, I watched all episodes, you interviewed quite a few celebrities there, right. And something that really struck me it was a small, tiny bit piece of information that I wasn't aware of, although I grew up in Pakistan, watching Indian movies, a lot people in India, especially celebrities, and actors within the Hindi cinema, are quite wary of the term Bollywood, which was a huge surprise. Talk to me about that.
Smriti Mundhara
Yeah, it was interesting for me too, because I don't think I realized that before I started the process of making that series. But someone said me, like, I always cringe at that term, you know, even since I was younger, and I think before I really started unpacking it through the series, and asking other people about it, I think it was always because in America, I just felt like this sort of like blanket catch all phrase that was applied to everything Indian, you know, whether, even if it was, you know, like, it just became this term that became synonymous with Indians, it felt like it was flattening my culture, you know, and I didn't love that. So I just wondered, you know, from people within the industry, and it's also just like, the term is sort of a derivative of Hollywood. And I've always had this thought in my brain that when I was coming up in my career earlier, and like the 2000s, the big holy grail was like the crossover, you know, it's like, how to take something in the end and make it resonate in the West. And I remember even at that time, really thinking like, why do we need that we're three, four times the population. Why are we so obsessed, you know, with this validation from the west, so I think all of these thoughts were swirling. And when one of the interviews I just asked somebody, you know, what they felt about that term, and the reaction was so strong. It was just like, immediately, like, I don't like that word that I started asking every person I interviewed that question, and the answers were so varied and so layered and so interesting, you know, from outright rejection, to Yeah, it makes me cringe, but I kind of get it and I use it Guilty as charged. You know, it was like, but no one was like, Oh, it's great. I love it. I embrace it. It was very fascinating. And I think what I really learned from that was that I think people just recognizing that we don't want to be defined by the West. We have a robust industry that's nearly as old you know, as Hollywood that's been around for decades and generations has made huge contributions to global cinema has its own style, its own cinematic language, its own ecosystem. So why should we be defined as a derivative of something that's Western
Saadia Khan
Right? So what should we call it Indian cinema? Hindi cinema.
Smriti Mundhara
I don't know, it's so tough because I think Indian cinema is nice because it covers all of the different industries and languages, right?And languages and everything regional cinema or South Asian cinema, which also includes like Pakistani content and you know, other areas, if you were referring to what is commonly referred to as Bollywood, by now say Hindi film industry, as opposed to like Tamil film industry, Telugu film industry, Canada, industry, whatever, whatever.
Saadia Khan
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I also want to talk a little bit about your new show. It's about Muslims finding love. I am excited, curious, it's going to release in 2024. That's right. Talk to me a little bit about that. Can you share some insights?
Smriti Mundhara
Yeah, definitely. The show is fundamentally about the things that I'm curious about. And I guess in some ways, after four seasons of Indian and Jewish matchmaking has become like a core competency of mine is creating content about people's search for love and companionship, I really wanted to do something in the Muslim community, just because, of course, again, it's a huge population, a huge global population. Also, it's a population that's been pretty catastrophically misrepresented in Western media. Over the years, in my lifetime, there's been very little, I think, uplifting, complex, nuanced representation of Muslims in films and television, that's not either playing into victim tropes or terrorists, bad actor tropes. And I wanted to explore that through the lens that I know best at this point, which is matchmaking and love and relationships and things like that, because I feel so much is revealed from that journey. And so I'm really excited about the show, you know, we're about to start production, and it's going to show you know, many different aspects of the faith, many different aspects of the diaspora. And I think people will be really intrigued and surprised to see how the show comes together.
Saadia Khan
You know, I am so excited because as you said, there are 1.2 billion Muslims, South Asian, African, Latino, European Arabs, and a lot of times again, in Western society and media, Muslims are conflated with Arabs only. So I'm really, really excited to see that broad spectrum of Muslim humanity through this lens. Are you going to film in New York? And can I come watch it?
Smriti Mundhara
I wouldn't be surprised if we filmed in New York. And we would love to have you as a guest.
Saadia Khan
Oh, my gosh, you mean, I am going to take you up on this. And I am going to follow up and I will be there. I'll be
In the end, Smriti, if you were to define America, in a word or a sentence, how would you do that?
Smriti Mundhara
Work in progress.
Saadia Khan
I totally agree. I love it. It is indeed work in progress. It's really this was so good. I am so glad I am a bit starstruck as I'm a huge fan of your work. And I am sorry, you are sitting in a car and you had to do this interview under these circumstances. But I'm so glad we did it.
Smriti Mundhara
I'm so glad to and thank you again for all of the work that you're doing Saadia to amplify our our stories and our issues and you know, all of that it's the work you're doing is incredibly important. And I'm also a fan of yours.
Saadia Khan
this was so much fun, although we had to reschedule ones and today it was pouring outside. But anyways, I am so glad I was able to talk to Smriti. She is a wonderful filmmaker, a documentarian, a creator, I'm a big fan of her work, I can't wait to see what else she produces. If you have any thoughts on this, or any other episodes that we've produced, do write to us you can reach out to me at sadiya at Immigrantly pod.com. You can follow us on Instagram, Twitter, take DoD you can visit our website Immigrantly pod.com. And don't forget to give us a thumbs up five stars write us a sweet review. And if you do that in the next couple of weeks, I promise I will read it on one of our podcast episodes. So yeah, this episode was produced by me, Saadia Khan, written by me and Rainier Harris. The editorial review was done by Shei Yu. Our editor our incredible editor is Haziq Ahmad Farid. Original theme music for Immigrantly is done by Simon Hutchinson. Until next time, take care,